HOF: Who Gets In Today?

[Thump]

I don't know if you're thick or just plain stupid. I'm begining to think the latter. Either that, or you can't comprehend a post that lasts longer than one run-on sentence.

You think I don't realize a BOB doesn't count as an at bat?

I'll take 10 walks over going 3-10 any day of the week.

By the way, maybe people would give Donnie Baseball more credit if he was a star on piece of shit team.

Basically the Paul Hornung of the major leagues.

 

[Sloopy45]

Thump: "You think I don't realize a BOB doesn't count as an at bat?"

Apparently not. Otherwise, my previous post would be very, very simple to understand.

"I'll take 10 walks over going 3-10 any day of the week."

I never said otherwise. 10 walks vs 3 hits is another conversation altogether. We were comparing 4 base hits vs. 2 base hits & 2 walks.

"By the way, maybe people would give Donnie Baseball more credit if he was a star on piece of shit team."

Makes perfect sense to me. Apparently, you can read AND write run-on sentences.

 

[tibor75]

Sutter's the only guy on that list with an argument for the HOF .. there should be an option for Don Mattingly and Nobody as well.

Here's hoping that Donny Baseball gets in.

Another clueless Yankee fan who thinks "pretty good" equals "HOF"

 

[tibor75]

Can somebody explain the weak support for Orel? It is because the writers don't want to let somebody in on their first chance?

 

[Thump]

Thump: "You think I don't realize a BOB doesn't count as an at bat?"

Apparently not. Otherwise, my previous post would be very, very simple to understand.

"I'll take 10 walks over going 3-10 any day of the week."

I never said otherwise. 10 walks vs 3 hits is another conversation altogether. We were comparing 4 base hits vs. 2 base hits & 2 walks.

"By the way, maybe people would give Donnie Baseball more credit if he was a star on piece of shit team."

Makes perfect sense to me. Apparently, you can read AND write run-on sentences.

"Stupid is as stupid does ma'am"

 

[Sloopy45]

Tibbs: "Another clueless Yankee fan who thinks "pretty good" equals "HOF"

Aren't such words grounds for re-banishment?

"Can somebody explain the weak support for Orel? It is because the writers don't want to let somebody in on their first chance?"

The writers want to make sure that Orel and Jose Mesa get in the same year.

 

[Thump]

The writers want to make sure that Orel and Jose Mesa get in the same year.

Please explain oh master of the italics.

 

[tibor75]

The writers want to make sure that Orel and Jose Mesa get in the same year.

Don't forget Omar!

 

[Jaxbuck]

OBP & SLG favor the hitter who gets on base via the walk rather than the base hit.

Lets say we have Player A who went 4 for 10, with two singles, a double, and a HR. Player A has a .400 OBP (4/10).

Now, Player B got on base 4 times with 2 BBs and 2 singles in 10 plate appearences, which counts as 8 ABs. Player B's OBP is .500 (4/8).

Same amount of times on base in the same amount of plate appearences, but B's OBP is 100 points higher.

Helps if you know the formulas

OBP:

[SIZE=-1](Hits + Walks + Hit-By-Pitch) divided by (At Bats + Walks+ Hit-By-Pitch + Sac Flys)[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=-1]The On Base Percentage statistic was originally created by Branch Rickey and Allan Roth in the 1950's as a means to measure the percentage of times a player reaches any base. It did not originally include the sacrifice fly denomination but when it was officially adapted in 1984 it appeared using the formula written above. It is easily one of the most important statistics and it is specifically written with managers in mind.[/SIZE]​

In your example player B's OBP would be the same as player A's.

A: (4+0+0)/(10+0+0+0) is 4/10 or .400

B: (2+2+0)/(8+2+0+0) is 4/10 or .400

Apparently, all those years of 'competitive ball' kept you out of the Arithmetic classroom. Or, they didn't teach you how to keep stats.

You might be hearing from someone on this particular statement now.

 

[Thump]

You might be hearing from someone on this particular statement now.

Don't worry, Sloopy will just rebuff you by spewing more worthless stats such as the number of times Mattingly got hits in the 3rd inning with a guy on second during night games played on Wednesdays during months beginning with "J" after taking a huge dump.

I'm sure Donnie's a HOF in this category as well.

 

[tibor75]

How does a self-professed baseball expert not know how to calculate OBP? Is he really that stoopid?

 

[BB73]

Baseball needs a stat called 'Bases advanced'. The batter would get credit for each base that was advanced because of his plate appearance. It would count 1 for a sacrifice fly and 1 for a sacrifice bunt. It would count 3 for a single advancing a runner from 1st to 3rd. A baserunner (not the batter) gets 1 for every stolen base, as well as each base advanced on wild pitches and passed balls. With only a runner on first, a GIDP would be worth -1, since a base was lost. With runners on the corners, a GIDP with a run scoring is worth 0. Hitting into a triple play would be worth -2, assuming no run scored (which is possible if the 3rd out occurs in a run-down or something like that).

You'd get 10 bases for a grand slam, 8 for a double that knocks in 3 runs, 1 for a lead-off walk, and 4 for a bases-loaded walk. In that way, a bases-loaded walk equals a solo home run, as it should (think about it - both situations add 1 run to the scoreboard without changing the number of outs or the number of baserunners).

I believe that 'bases advanced' divided by all plate appearances would measure offensive efficiency better than any existing statistic. Feel free to go back and calculate it for Mattingly and Clark if you really care.

 

[harrydangler]

Will Clark played his last seven seasons in the Ballpark at Arlington and Camden Yards in stacked line-ups. Clark posted 2 of his 3 best Averages in those seasons, and was able to hang on in those stadiums to allow his lifetime numbers to creep up to Donnie. Mattingly played most of the twilight of his career on a last place team with Mel Hall and a washed up Jesse Barfield behind him. There's the difference.

That's pretty ridiculous. Do you know much about Clark's career? His prime years were spent in the harder league to hit in during a much tougher era to hit. The league ERA during his 5 year prime is 3.68 while Mattingly's tough AL pitching had an ERA of 4.15 during his prime. Clark also had less protection and opportunites than Mattingly. During their primes, Mattingly's teams averaged over 1 more run per game than Clarks Giants. You want to compare RBI's and Hits....try having two HOF'ers in Rickey Henderson (3 of 5 prime years) leading off and Dave Winfield (all 5 prime years) protecting you in your lineup.

As for the hanging on years that you discuss. Hangers on don't get paid 5 million a year (a top 10 salary at the time) to play partial seasons. Clark wasn't hanging on, he was injury prone. In fact, when people mention how injured Mattingly was it makes me laugh because Clark had more injury problems. From 1994 to the end of his career Clark averaged 115 games a season and played 140 games only once in his career after 94. Mattingly had 102 games played in 1990 and 134 in 1993 before the strike and his impending retirement. I'm sure the back affected his numbers but he was still putting up 150 games to "compile" his stats as you call it. I'd call a guy with 150 games of sub par stats more of a compiler than a guy who plays 116 games do to injury but still shows his old form when he does play.

I can't understand your new argument about walks and its relation to OBP/OPS etc either. You find it ok to argue that the reason Clarks OPS is higher than Mattingly is due to walks. Well don't you think the other numbers (hits, HR's, RBI's, etc) that you continue to argue are inflated in Mattingly's direction because Clark walked so much. During their primes Mattingly is averaging over 100 more at bats than Clark. Give 100 more at bats, a better league to hit in, and a better team around him and you can bet their numbers are equal if not better (and I can guarantee at least 1 MVP to go with it since you mentioned awards).

I'm glad we had this argument because I used to think Mattingly was slightly better than Clark overall but after my research I now firmly believe that Clark was the better player.

 

[Sloopy45]

Jax: "In your example player B's OBP would be the same as player A's."

Jax, my Player A vs Player B was to demonstrate how its skewed. If OBP = (H + BB) / (AB + BB), think about it. Again, simple math: (H/AB) + (BB/BB). And for you, Thump who was playing "competitive ball" while you should have been in class: BB/BB = 1.

Example A:
Carlos Delgado, 2001: 160 H + 111 BB = 271 TOB. (.408 OBP)

Ichiro, 2001: 242 Hits + 30 BB = 272 TOB (.381)

Time to finish reading Moneyball, Jax.

Dump: "Don't worry, Sloopy will just rebuff you by spewing more worthless stats such as the number of times Mattingly got hits in the 3rd inning with a guy on second during night games played on Wednesdays during months beginning with "J" after taking a huge dump."

Dude, your stupidity has ousted you out of this conversation a long time ago. Go start another analytical thread about what kind of BBQ sauce I like, or what color underwear I'm wearing today. That's about all you're good for.

Tibbs: "How does a self-professed baseball expert not know how to calculate OBP? Is he really that stoopid?"

Mods???

 

[Jaxbuck]

Baseball needs a stat called 'Bases advanced'. The batter would get credit for each base that was advanced because of his plate appearance. It would count 1 for a sacrifice fly and 1 for a sacrifice bunt. It would count 3 for a single advancing a runner from 1st to 3rd. A baserunner (not the batter) gets 1 for every stolen base, as well as each base advanced on wild pitches and passed balls. With only a runner on first, a GIDP would be worth -1, since a base was lost. With runners on the corners, a GIDP with a run scoring is worth 0. Hitting into a triple play would be worth -2, assuming no run scored (which is possible if the 3rd out occurs in a run-down or something like that).

You'd get 10 bases for a grand slam, 8 for a double that knocks in 3 runs, 1 for a lead-off walk, and 4 for a bases-loaded walk. In that way, a bases-loaded walk equals a solo home run, as it should (think about it - both situations add 1 run to the scoreboard without changing the number of outs or the number of baserunners).

I believe that 'bases advanced' divided by all plate appearances would measure offensive efficiency better than any existing statistic. Feel free to go back and calculate it for Mattingly and Clark if you really care.

Excellent concept.