The Ohio State University Marching Band (TBDBITL)

[Coqui]

Actually, marching band in 9th and 10th, regular band since I was in like 5th grade, jazz all four years of HS, and then in college both pep bands (yay for twice the pay!), jazz combo and ensemble, and wind ensemble.

However, I went to HS in a small Indiana town where "everyone" went to church and those two years of college band activities were at a private Christian university, so my band life wasn't exactly big time HS or college style. Still, I had a few friends who did marching band at Purdue and Ball State, so I heard plenty of stories and learned enough about big college band culture.

Yeah my graduating class was 700. I'm sure there was a culture difference.

 

[scarletmike]

Yeah my graduating class was 700. I'm sure there was a culture difference.

Yeah...my class was 1/10th that size.

 

[jlb1705]

I'm ashamed of this episode and proud of the university for taking decisive action today.

18-23 year olds are going to be 18-23 year olds. We've all been that age before and most of us did incredibly stupid shit to ourselves or others in the name of fitting in. It's not exclusive to this generation or this cohort of band members, and it's not exclusive to the marching band subculture.

The real problem was that Waters and his staff not only condoned the behavior, they participated in it and facilitated it. That is entirely unacceptable for a person in his position.

The argument that the students are adults and the offended are free to extricate themselves cuts both ways. They are adults, so that is a standard that a supposed educator and leader like Jon Waters should have been holding them to for their behavior. As an employee of the university he's responsible for creating and maintaining a respectful environment in that program instead of providing a platform for people to act like shitheads.

 

[jlb1705]

From the report, in his own words:

Waters said the Band’s “image reflects leadership.”

Yes it does.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

18-23 year olds are going to be 18-23 year olds. We've all been that age before and most of us did incredibly stupid [Mark May] to ourselves or others in the name of fitting in. It's not exclusive to this generation or this cohort of band members, and it's not exclusive to the marching band subculture.

The real problem was that Waters and his staff not only condoned the behavior, they participated in it and facilitated it. That is entirely unacceptable for a person in his position.

I see no zero problem in "Waters and his staff" condoning age-old band traditions, no matter how replusive it may seem to today's PC crowd. He and staff participating in some rituals may be too much, but then again who knows exactly what these rituals are. And as mentioned before, all this shit came about not because of a complaint from a band member but because of a complaint from a fucking parent...someone who very likely didn't have the full story.

As someone who spent four years in one of Ohio's premier high school military marching bands in the early '70s, and Keesler AFB's drum and bugle corps (assistant drum major) in '75-'76, I know what shit goes on, especially in the post-high school arena. There is a reason for nearly every aspect of the hazing/ritual, whether it be perservering through tough challenges, performing under "uncomfortable" circumstances, or simply proving your worth. Plus, believe it or not, these behaviors build espirit de corps and bond band members together as a unit.

 

[Coqui]

I'm ashamed of this episode and proud of the university for taking decisive action today.

18-23 year olds are going to be 18-23 year olds. We've all been that age before and most of us did incredibly stupid [Mark May] to ourselves or others in the name of fitting in. It's not exclusive to this generation or this cohort of band members, and it's not exclusive to the marching band subculture.

The real problem was that Waters and his staff not only condoned the behavior, they participated in it and facilitated it. That is entirely unacceptable for a person in his position.

The argument that the students are adults and the offended are free to extricate themselves cuts both ways. They are adults, so that is a standard that a supposed educator and leader like Jon Waters should have been holding them to for their behavior. As an employee of the university he's responsible for creating and maintaining a respectful environment in that program instead of providing a platform for people to act like [Mark May]heads.

They're adults......which means they can say no. You don't get cut from the band if you refuse, (as this is all after you make the cuts) It's a passive aggressive method of handling this. Don't want a sexually referenced nickname? Refuse it, and if they push it, you bring it up to the administration. Don't want to march at midnight in your underwear? Don't. This happened because people did it anyways and then complained to mommy and daddy to make the bad man stop. In other words, they failed their first attempt at handling something like an adult when they finally became an adult. (I had an excuse, I was still 17 when I tried out, so I was still a kid :P)

 

[cincibuck]

And from reading through some of the parody songs, I'm betting a lot of them might be a decade or two or more old and handed down through the generations.

Like maybe, "Hail to the mother fuckers, hail to those big cock suckers, hail, hail to Michigan the cesspool of the West?" or "Indiana, you old banana, Indiana, to hell with you, we won't die for, stand up or cry for, the glories of old IU, Your red and cream is in all our coffee, in every game you're beat black and blue, so Indiana, you old banana, Indiana to hell with you."

Learned both of those in the two weeks I was a drum slinger for TBDBITL in the fall of 1961.

In those days the band was all male and was worth the same two credits that basic ROTC was offered. In winter and spring most band members were a part of the ROTC band, neatly avoiding the mandatory ROTC requirement altogether.

All male? What could possibly go wrong?

On Mondays the band sat in practice room in the stadium and watched the films of Saturday's performance. Mistakes were noted and the offending bandsmen were grabbed by the others in his row and dragged from the band room to the banks of the Olentangy and summarily tossed into the river.

I wasn't on the train trip to Evanston, but I heard the stories of freshmen grabbed and told to drink the whiskey in front of them or have their mouths forced open and the whiskey poured in.

All of what happened was seen as harmless, just good-natured bonding and probably far less than what was going on in the fraternity houses. If you believe cognitive dissonance theory, the more extreme the initiation, the stronger the bonds that hold members together long after the association has ended.

I'm not surprised that this happened. I wondered what happened when women were first allowed to try out for TBDBITL. Would the raunchy songs, river dumping and road trip booze torture continue? Evidently it did.

The next question will be if someone can come in and change the traditional culture and the question after that will be if hard work is enough to retain the quality of TBDBITL.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

They're adults......which means they can say no. You don't get cut from the band if you refuse, (as this is all after you make the cuts) It's a passive aggressive method of handling this. Don't want a sexually referenced nickname? Refuse it, and if they push it, you bring it up to the administration. Don't want to march at midnight in your underwear? Don't. This happened because people did it anyways and then complained to mommy and daddy to make the bad man stop. In other words, they failed their first attempt at handling something like an adult when they finally became an adult. (I had an excuse, I was still 17 when I tried out, so I was still a kid :P)

I'm personally not offended by anything the band was doing, but given the state of the law, once the administration's investigation found out about it, their hands were tied. You can cry about PC all you want, but it wouldn't take much of a lawyer to prove a hostile environment in court, and then the university is paying millions and facing a media shitstorm for covering it up. Had Waters been able to show some effort and progress at changing the culture instead of condoning it (and taking part in it personally), he'd still have his job.

 

[BayBuck]

I just wonder how much of a chance the administration gave Waters to be a part of the solution, or to somehow accept a censure/discipline/demotion that was short of a full termination... Reading between the lines, it sounds like the investigation was probably contentious on both sides from the start, maybe Waters was being a little too evasive or less-than-forthright and the admin started to think "We've been down this road before".

 

[Bucklion]

I just wonder how much of a chance the administration gave Waters to be a part of the solution, or to somehow accept a censure/discipline/demotion that was short of a full termination... Reading between the lines, it sounds like the investigation was probably contentious on both sides from the start, maybe Waters was being a little too evasive or less-than-forthright and the admin started to think "We've been down this road before".

My guess would be that Waters...inadvertently probably...identified himself as part of the problem, and the University didn't give him the option of being part of the solution. Either that, or he gave the "boys will be boys" defense and made their decision easy.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

I just wonder how much of a chance the administration gave Waters to be a part of the solution, or to somehow accept a censure/discipline/demotion that was short of a full termination... Reading between the lines, it sounds like the investigation was probably contentious on both sides from the start, maybe Waters was being a little too evasive or less-than-forthright and the admin started to think "We've been down this road before".

I think that once it came out that he actually used the sexual nicknames to refer directly to the band members, he was dead man walking. Hard to argue that you can somehow be part of the solution in light of that. Not to mention that it takes the university's legal vulnerabilities to an entirely different level than if this was all being done on the side and solely by the students.

 

[jlb1705]

I see no zero problem in "Waters and his staff" condoning age-old band traditions, no matter how replusive it may seem to today's PC crowd. He and staff participating in some rituals may be too much, but then again who knows exactly what these rituals are. And as mentioned before, all this [Mark May] came about not because of a complaint from a band member but because of a complaint from a fucking parent...someone who very likely didn't have the full story.

As someone who spent four years in one of Ohio's premier high school military marching bands in the early '70s, and Keesler AFB's drum and bugle corps (assistant drum major) in '75-'76, I know what [Mark May] goes on, especially in the post-high school arena. There is a reason for nearly every aspect of the hazing/ritual, whether it be perservering through tough challenges, performing under "uncomfortable" circumstances, or simply proving your worth. Plus, believe it or not, these behaviors build espirit de corps and bond band members together as a unit.

He knew exactly what the rituals were. The report makes pretty clear that he was supervising and/or participating in some of them.

They're adults......which means they can say no. You don't get cut from the band if you refuse, (as this is all after you make the cuts) It's a passive aggressive method of handling this. Don't want a sexually referenced nickname? Refuse it, and if they push it, you bring it up to the administration. Don't want to march at midnight in your underwear? Don't. This happened because people did it anyways and then complained to mommy and daddy to make the bad man stop. In other words, they failed their first attempt at handling something like an adult when they finally became an adult. (I had an excuse, I was still 17 when I tried out, so I was still a kid :P)

Of course you're not cut off from the band organization if you don't participate. You would be cut off socially from other band members though. That's the implied or stated threat in all types of hazing. And of course they are adults and free to not participate. How many college kids (especially freshmen, away from home for the first time, trying to make new friends) are going to think in that manner? How many are going to think in that kind of social situation under that kind of pressure, "I don't care if I fit in, I'd rather snitch"?

The blaming the complainant(s) for not acting like an adult is absurd. Read the report. Nobody discussed in it was acting like an adult, including Waters. That's why he's gone.

 

[jwinslow]

It's unfortunate but he was linked directly too many times to survive this (any might have been enough). One can make the argument that others should have been reprimanded before him but this seems like a pretty simple situation.

 

[Woody1968]

Like maybe, "Hail to the mother fuckers, hail to those big cock suckers, hail, hail to Michigan the cesspool of the West?" or "Indiana, you old banana, Indiana, to hell with you, we won't die for, stand up or cry for, the glories of old IU, Your red and cream is in all our coffee, in every game you're beat black and blue, so Indiana, you old banana, Indiana to hell with you."

Learned both of those in the two weeks I was a drum slinger for TBDBITL in the fall of 1961.

In those days the band was all male and was worth the same two credits that basic ROTC was offered. In winter and spring most band members were a part of the ROTC band, neatly avoiding the mandatory ROTC requirement altogether.

All male? What could possibly go wrong?

On Mondays the band sat in practice room in the stadium and watched the films of Saturday's performance. Mistakes were noted and the offending bandsmen were grabbed by the others in his row and dragged from the band room to the banks of the Olentangy and summarily tossed into the river.

I wasn't on the train trip to Evanston, but I heard the stories of freshmen grabbed and told to drink the whiskey in front of them or have their mouths forced open and the whiskey poured in.

All of what happened was seen as harmless, just good-natured bonding and probably far less than what was going on in the fraternity houses. If you believe cognitive dissonance theory, the more extreme the initiation, the stronger the bonds that hold members together long after the association has ended.

I'm not surprised that this happened. I wondered what happened when women were first allowed to try out for TBDBITL. Would the raunchy songs, river dumping and road trip booze torture continue? Evidently it did.

The next question will be if someone can come in and change the traditional culture and the question after that will be if hard work is enough to retain the quality of TBDBITL.

Notre Dame students also sing a very similar version of the scUM song.

 

[OSUK]

There is a ton of PC crap, psychobabble, and the like going on in our culture.

There is also a decay in how we treat women. I think there are many factors that go into that - which I will not go into because they are all hot-button issues, but I will throw out one that we men are solely responsible for. If you are under 30, the chances are very high that you have viewed multiplied thousands of hours of pornography. Many men think it is harmless fun. The research, and my experience in dealing with broken men, indicates that it is sexual and relational heroin. It is addictive, progressive, and very destructive. It is fantasy, and it desensitizes us to having real sex with a real woman in a loving context where we are trying to meet her needs instead of just our own. Women literally become sexual objects who's value is only what gratification they can bring to us. I see that attitude on this forum and every day in conversations with men. If we give ourselves totally over to that line of thinking, we are done as far as being capable of being good husbands and fathers.

We need to stop baptizing ourselves with images of naked women doing sexual acts because we need men who can love, nurture, and protect our girls. Pornography, by it's essence, takes us the other way.

I'm not saying pornography is at the core of this TBDBITL problem, but I am saying that it is a sub-factor that would allow, for instance, a male band member to think it is OK to force a female member to act out a faux sexual act on someone else.