The Ohio State University Marching Band (TBDBITL)

[cincibuck]

Read the posts about people who were actually involved. They said there was nothing negative if they chose not to participate. This is coming from people who actually were in the band. Including ones who said they chose not to participate.

Not disputing that, but the social pressure to go along with others is still present in the decision making process. I'm thinking of the now illegal Milgram studies on conformity.

 

[kujirakira]

Wisconsin has had stuff like this pop up in the past. Seems to be a common thing with marching bands.

Having been in a very competitive Marching Band in HS in a different timezone... yeap, pretty much.
I laughed at the bit about changing on the buses. There's really nothing to be done about that. You have 160+ -- 225 for TBDBITL -- people that have to change in a 10 to 15min window. And this usually happens several times for any given event. Where is it going to happen other than the bus? In my experience, you also had the option of getting onto the bus in your uniform... though you'd be terribly uncomfortable in that getup. Moreover, despite all the sexualized jokes and such... everyone respected the barriers put up and there's no mention here of people feeling violated; merely "concerned" about changing clothes. There's so many bags of clothes hanging down that any 2 seat block was easily be made into a private cubicle.

We also had a lot of dirty songs and bus games and such, and I kind of sympathize with Waters here. The chaperones or directors would try to make us stop too... but we'd just sing them down. There's a lot more of us than 1 shouting "concerned parent" that usually acted as the bus chaperone. The only person that could get us to stop was the 2nd band director -- he didn't actually have anything to do with the marching band and taught mostly Jazz, 2nd Symphony, and Orchestra -- but he'd go with us on the trips as another school official. The only reason he could get us to stop is because he was certifiably crazy (in a good way)... he used to throw chairs and stands at students that were fucking up. I remember during a Jazz competition, he pulled his wallet out and chucked it at a trumpet player in the middle of conducting.
The thing is, all those songs were taught to us by 2 female conductors. One of which was a transfer from out of state who brought us new material with her.

When I was a freshmen my section leader was also a female -- and she always called us "boners" (we played trombone). The horror. I tell you. The horror. Being in HS, our band was pretty evenly split as well. Perhaps because TBDBITL is strictly brass, so no flutes or clarinets to bring the female numbers back up.

There's a few things in there that seem out of line. Like the specific trick of a girl sitting on guys laps and faking orgasm or rubbing two girls rubbing the breasts together. Or the midnight ramp.
The alcohol also sounds out of control.
But a lot of it seems more laugh worthy to me. I could definitely see the full-body performance of an erection and then spitting candy out happening anywhere... and being hilarious.

They're adults......which means they can say no. You don't get cut from the band if you refuse, (as this is all after you make the cuts) It's a passive aggressive method of handling this. Don't want a sexually referenced nickname? Refuse it, and if they push it, you bring it up to the administration. Don't want to march at midnight in your underwear? Don't. This happened because people did it anyways and then complained to mommy and daddy to make the bad man stop. In other words, they failed their first attempt at handling something like an adult when they finally became an adult. (I had an excuse, I was still 17 when I tried out, so I was still a kid :P)

To be fair though, you could be cut the next year.
Personally I was expecting a report to highlight how refusal to participate in after-hour activities led to perceived removal or discipline by staff. Or to see actually sexual explicit behavior, rather than the kind of antics that all teenagers and early-20s get up to.
Instead, there was absolutely nothing to that effect in the report. I mean the final bullet points were quite tame imo... and most of the particulars were rather unremarkable and petty imo as well. It actually demonstrated that he had made efforts to improve the situation ... perhaps not enough effort... but dismissal definitely seems like a "fall guy" thing based on this report alone.

There is a ton of PC crap, psychobabble, and the like going on in our culture.

There is also a decay in how we treat women. I think there are many factors that go into that - which I will not go into because they are all hot-button issues, but I will throw out one that we men are solely responsible for. If you are under 30, the chances are very high that you have viewed multiplied thousands of hours of pornography. Many men think it is harmless fun. The research, and my experience in dealing with broken men, indicates that it is sexual and relational heroin. It is addictive, progressive, and very destructive. It is fantasy, and it desensitizes us to having real sex with a real woman in a loving context where we are trying to meet her needs instead of just our own. Women literally become sexual objects who's value is only what gratification they can bring to us. I see that attitude on this forum and every day in conversations with men. If we give ourselves totally over to that line of thinking, we are done as far as being capable of being good husbands and fathers.

We need to stop baptizing ourselves with images of naked women doing sexual acts because we need men who can love, nurture, and protect our girls. Pornography, by it's essence, takes us the other way.

I'm not saying pornography is at the core of this TBDBITL problem, but I am saying that it is a sub-factor that would allow, for instance, a male band member to think it is OK to force a female member to act out a faux sexual act on someone else.

I think the situation is markedly better for women now than it was in decades previous. Not to say it's at the place it should be, but I don't think anything in this report is indicative of the issues either.
If you've been in this kind of culture, you'd know that it goes both ways. As if women aren't able to enjoy dirty songs or something... to me, that Madonna/Whore complex is the current underlying issue in Western society's approach towards women.

Regarding porn specifically, ... actually I just deleted this part because I know a lot of people would've taken offense to it even if the nature in which all standing armies have abused and raped women en masse is well documented and factual, a lot of people take a "see no evil" Penn State approach to their own military.
Suffice to say, that practice has been a non-issue since the 1st Gulf War thanks to the widespread proliferation of pornography.

It's also a bit of a catch 22, it seems- if you don't supervise students while they do things, someone gets hurt and the university gets sued. If you do supervise them, there's a seemingly still under development protocol for how to respond without getting yourself in hot water.

Such as the issues and debate around Mirror Lake last year.
It'll be interesting to see if Drake tries to implode that too... and what'll happen as a result. Because I think they proved last year that they don't give a damn about for the whole administration.
And I suspect it'll be similar with the band... all of this will just go underground. I experienced the same in the military with the "Lance Corporal Underground" as its often called... Officers are terrified for the sake of their own career so you always keep them in the dark. NCOs and SNCOs to a lesser degree, but usually keep them in the dark too.
Hazing still goes full bore in the military though, and as somebody whose had to wear sweatpants to 6AM pt because of bloody and bruised shins and had holes by my collarbone... it's not really that bad.

That's why tOSU dropped the ball by rushing to judgement without interviewing the actual band members they were quick to call out.

To be fair they did interview Waters, and he seemed rather forthcoming about what he knew about and what he didn't know about.
While I appreciate his honesty, unfortunately it didn't help him keep his job.

 

[AKAK]

Isn't that a bit like waiting to fix a broken barn door until the cows have already escaped because none of the cows have tried to escape yet? When there is actual harm done to the victims (or whatever you want to call them), isn't that a bit late to start worrying about what you could have done differently?

No, its nothing like that. Because, well, there aren't any cows.

Problem here is, your (and to be fair the fucked up pussy helicopter parents out there) viewpoint is "protect these children" --- when they're indeed adults, they probalby don't need to be protected, and if they do, they might want to figure it the fuck out on their own.

Fucking christ, next someone's gonna be mean to them at work. And they're gonna have kids of their own that are gonna tell them to fuck off and die.

Better fix that door too.

Sounds to me like Joobs is a well adjusted, mentally stable young woman, who can tell the differnce between some bonding activity and being part of a unit from "someone being mean to her". The one whose mommy and daddy "bailed out" on the other hand...

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

No, its nothing like that. Because, well, there aren't any cows.

Problem here is, your (and to be fair the fucked up pussy helicopter parents out there) viewpoint is "protect these children" --- when they're indeed adults, they probalby don't need to be protected, and if they do, they might want to figure it the fuck out on their own.

My point has absolutely nothing to do with "protecting the children". My concern is the university being liable if/when a line gets crossed. That's it.

 

[BayBuck]

One final point....if there is nothing wrong with what's going on, why is it such a big secret?

Because look how all the "shocked, shocked I tell you" members of polite society react when they find out.

 

[AKAK]

My point has absolutely nothing to do with "protecting the children". My concern is the university being liable if/when a line gets crossed. That's it.

Then your analogy should have made the danger the lack of action, not the danger the wandering helpless cows.

 

[jlb1705]

It'll be interesting to see if Drake tries to implode that too... and what'll happen as a result. Because I think they proved last year that they don't give a damn about for the whole administration.
And I suspect it'll be similar with the band... all of this will just go underground.

...and that's the way it should be. Having administrators supervising, sponsoring or participating in these things is not only improper, it's incredibly lame. Let the students act like students, but the administrators need to act like administrators.

 

[kujirakira]

...and that's the way it should be. Having administrators supervising, sponsoring or participating in these things is not only improper, it's incredibly lame. Let the students act like students, but the administrators need to act like administrators.

It doesn't eliminate the catch-22 I was responding to, however.
Did you read the report? Notice the phrase "reasonably should know about"
You're damned if you don't supervise such events, because it's not really a secret that the students are jumping in a lake every year or marching around on the field in their underwear.
But you're damned if you do supervise such events, because THE HORROR!

Personally, I'd rather have such events be supervised.
I'd rather have medical professionals available at the lake than Administrators attempting to play stupid.
I'd rather have University personnel at such an event of them walking on the field to ensure any would-be perpetrators know they'll be dealt with if they try anything rather than have it be unsupervised drunk fest that would eventually involve real sexual harassment or worse.

 

[jlb1705]

It doesn't eliminate the catch-22 I was responding to, however.
Did you read the report? Notice the phrase "reasonably should know about"
You're damned if you don't supervise such events, because it's not really a secret that the students are jumping in a lake every year or marching around on the field in their underwear.
But you're damned if you do supervise such events, because THE HORROR!

I did read the report. I don't agree that there is a catch-22. It should be more like a game of cat and mouse. The university has a responsibility to comply and enforce policy and do what's in their power to maintain a safe environment conducive to learning. Students that have an interest in doing stupid shit have a responsibility to at least do it in a manner where they won't be caught or found out.

When I read the phrase "reasonably should know about" I take that to refer to the several things in that report that were happening pretty much in plain sight. These are behaviors that are meant to be subversive. I don't think they should be institutionalized.

 

[kujirakira]

I did read the report. I don't agree that there is a catch-22. It should be more like a game of cat and mouse. The university has a responsibility to comply and enforce policy and do what's in their power to maintain a safe environment conducive to learning. Students that have an interest in doing stupid [Mark May] have a responsibility to at least do it in a manner where they won't be caught or found out.

When I read the phrase "reasonably should know about" I take that to refer to the several things in that report that were happening pretty much in plain sight. These are behaviors that are meant to be subversive. I don't think they should be institutionalized.

Monitoring such events fulfills that responsibility.
Playing stupid, or "cat and mouse" as you call it, on the other hand is negligence.

And I'd point out again, this is all very tame and entirely voluntary stuff. Jumping in a lake. Marching in underwear. It pails in comparison to the stuff I got up to in the military at the same age... which had to be kept underground due to its illegality under UCMJ or Federal laws... whereas the only reason to keep this stuff under wraps is because of some helicopter parents.
Really.
And as Joobs and Tiggles letters -- which I've just read -- make abundantly clear, they never felt harassed or sexualized until the report itself sexualized them and used her religion as a tool for their own righteous indignation. Tiggles also attests that she was never called that by any of the staff, bringing the veracity of witnesses with an axe to grind into question.

 

[ORD_Buckeye]

Monitoring such events fulfills that responsibility.
Playing stupid, or "cat and mouse" as you call it, on the other hand is negligence.

And I'd point out again, this is all very tame and entirely voluntary stuff. Jumping in a lake. Marching in underwear. It pails in comparison to the stuff I got up to in the military at the same age... which had to be kept underground due to its illegality under UCMJ or Federal laws... whereas the only reason to keep this stuff under wraps is because of some helicopter parents.
Really.
And as Joobs and Tiggles letters -- which I've just read -- make abundantly clear, they never felt harassed or sexualized until the report itself sexualized them and used her religion as a tool for their own righteous indignation. Tiggles also attests that she was never called that by any of the staff, bringing the veracity of witnesses with an axe to grind into question.

Disagree. What was going on in the band, particularly in light of Waters nonchalant attitude towards it and/or active participation in it was every bit as actionable under federal (and civil) law as what you're talking about. As to your latter paragraph, soldiers might not find any problem with a so-called "code red," but that doesn't relieve their officers of legal responsibility for its occurrence.

I'm about the least PC person you'll ever meet and personally don't find anything offensive about what went on. That being said, the university found itself in a precarious legal position because of Water's inaction and had to act decisively. That I understand and support. Here's The Dispatch article on some of the legalities.

 

[AKAK]

...and that's the way it should be. Having administrators supervising, sponsoring or participating in these things is not only improper, it's incredibly lame. Let the students act like students, but the administrators need to act like administrators.

See, this is right, and I've held all along that if Waters didn't maintain that line, then there's a problem.

I did read the report. I don't agree that there is a catch-22. It should be more like a game of cat and mouse. The university has a responsibility to comply and enforce policy and do what's in their power to maintain a safe environment conducive to learning. Students that have an interest in doing stupid [Mark May] have a responsibility to at least do it in a manner where they won't be caught or found out.

When I read the phrase "reasonably should know about" I take that to refer to the several things in that report that were happening pretty much in plain sight. These are behaviors that are meant to be subversive. I don't think they should be institutionalized.

This, on the other hand, is the problem with this whole mess. Its playing the Puritanical ideal on one hand, while allowing that kids will be kids. Let me give you a heads up, if there were legitimately bad things going on, I mean like cut and dry felonies, it doesn't matter a whole heck of a lot what was in plain sight or not. But your argument here is saying the kids have a responsibility to give the adults plausible deniability?

That makes no sense whatsoever, on two levels. If they were in the band they know, and on the other side of the coin, you get into specific things Paterno didn't know. (back to felonies, and the difference between being called Joobs and showering with kids)

Reasonably should know about, my ass. "Hi guys, its me, Prof Waters, I just want you to know that I reasonably know there some shenanigans going on in here, so stop calling Mary Joobs. Even though its hilarious, thanks"

The only cat and mouse here is the shock and surprise and outrage from the PC set. Fuck 'em.

 

[cincibuck]

The only cat and mouse here is the shock and surprise and outrage from the PC set. Fuck 'em.

Speaking as someone whose knowledge on what goes on amongst college administrators is limited I have two observations:
1. Most of them look like Paterno scooting through the end zone on his way to the locker room when you mention anything students, faculty, secretaries, janitors, security are doing. It's a mindset brought on by law suits.

2. Speaking as an adjunct, a portion of the full time faculty I know put a good deal of time and effort into discovering political incorrectness. Some of it is appropriate and based on research, but some of it seems to be grasping at all straws out there.

 

[AKAK]

1. Most of them look like Paterno scooting through the end zone on his way to the locker room when you mention anything students, faculty, secretaries, janitors, security are doing. It's a mindset brought on by law suits.

Did any of them internalize the idea that if they were to just, you know, close all the law schools...

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Frankly, I'm embarrassed I'd never thought of "Joobs" before.