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BII/SGN Clarification -- Open Letter (Merged)

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Clarity

Will Bryant
Staff member
BII/SGN Clarification -- Open Letter

Okay... Not even sure how to start this. Not even sure I should. I've wanted nothing more than to avoid some sort of dramatic quagmire. Not sure that's what we're walking into here, but who knows at this point. I've stated several times recently that I want BP to avoid the sort of drama and bickering that has gone on in the past in regards to issues like Buckshots, BNuts, SZ, etc.

However, it's obvious that I need to clear the air on the genesis of the Alan and BII/SGN issue.

Some months back, I was faced with a decision. DiHard had crossed one too many lines, and most of the core people here at BP felt he needed to go. I sat down and talked to DiH about this, with the intent of trying to explain why I was going to ban him. During the course of that conversation, he told me that DiHard was a character he had become too spun up in. That he felt DiHard was what people wanted, and that it was really not him at all. He felt horribly that it had gone so far, and wished he could do it all over.

So, I suggested he do so. I heard what he had to say about his connections, how much he enjoyed pursuing them, how much he wanted to bring to BP, and that he wanted to let his true personality show. So rather than ban him, we decided he would retire DiHard -- both the name and the personality, and restart as Alan. Alan would be active on the site in a more positive way, would be less offensive, would bring something back to the community that he claimed he loved so much.

When I made the decision to give all this a shot, I did it against the wishes of some people who were important to both me and the site. A couple guys who were key players in the early development of the site, and guys whose vision we still enjoy as a standard in an important area of BP. But, arrogantly, I felt like I could keep it all under control. I felt I could keep Alan focused on the Rumor Mill, out of Recruiting, and that BP's community would benefit from the new layer of information and internal involvement.

Alan's enthusiasm is sometimes a wonderful thing, and sometimes it also can cause problems. Before I go forward here, I want to make one thing abundantly clear -- *I* am responsible for things getting out of pocket, *I* put everyone in this situation. Some toes were stepped on, some people were plainly disrespected, and ultimately were just sort of slapped in the face. After over a year of hard, unrelenting effort and giving, they were on many levels having their area of focus usurped, and were facing a situation where they were being unwillingly associated with an approach and vision that ran directly against much of what they believed in. The end result was they left the site. Which in of itself (their leaving) as massive a loss that was, wasn't the biggest tragedy. I believe BP has to be dynamic, in the sense that people can come and go, but the community itself lives on. What was more tragic, was that they left feeling (appropriately and understandably) betrayed and disrespected, I had indeed let them down, and I've carried the full load of responsibility and guilt for that, they deserved FAR better. I asked them to bear with my experiment, I asked them to just blow off antics and ride out the exercise; and the truth was I was asking too much. It was a burden they were willing and able to carry, but one they shouldn't have had to. Sometimes a broad focus makes you miss some important details, and I did along that way.

But I'm off topic here, the point is to come around to BII.

I felt that my Alan situation would go one of two ways. That either it would be a bust, and he would end up getting banned anyway, or that he would really come into his own, and eventually move on to his own site. I pushed that latter notion with him early and often. I knew that he wanted to try and partially or entirely support himself with the rumors and recruiting insight, and I also knew that I was unwilling to compromise my "no ads, no commercialism" stance. When it was suggested that an area of BP be created that would carry both of those elements, I reinforced the "new site" concept firmly.

As you all know, I haven't been around much this Summer. Without going into great detail, I have a lot of issues coming to a head, and this is and has been a difficult period with a lot of upheaval. It's not over yet, I honestly don't know where I'll be watching this upcoming season from as I type this. Also don't know how I'll hold up to getting there. I say this only to explain why I haven't been around much.

During a long period of my absence, Alan went ahead and took the steps to start his own site. He sent me PMs here and there talking about how it was going to be a perfect compliment to BP, just a subscription site with the best insider info on the net.

Fast forward, and what BII/SGN is, is BuckeyePlanet2. It is a mirror image of this site, in almost every meaningful way. I'll be honest, I felt slapped myself when I first saw its rebirth. I knew they were switching to vBulletin, I knew they were going to use some of the same hacks, but I didn't know that it was going to be a copy of BP down to the simple disclaimer down at the bottom. LloydSev was brought in by Alan to set things up, and they used BP as a template, duplicating almost everything here in form and function. They even browsed through my Terrible Twos thread, and made some of the upgrades there. Bigger avatars, for example. The goal was to make BP, but under a different banner, and with a subscription area.

I can see the rationale behind this. I mean, if they can usurp BP's position and userbase, then that's an instant community that they can draw a subscriber base from. I honestly don't know if this is their goal or not, Alan has told me in a couple PMs that it is certainly not -- but let's face it, any reasonable person can look at the two sites, and have to wonder what the point of two of the virtually same creature is.

BII/SGN does not compliment BP, it's a complete and somewhat convincing doppelganger. This has left a lot of really outstanding people over here feeling confused, threatened and disrespected, and rightfully so.

We (the admins, senior mods, and mods here) have been approached with questions like; "are we shutting BP down", "is Clarity getting kickbacks to move the community over to a new group", "are the core contributors going to move over to the new site", "is BII the next step in BP's evolution", etc.

There is a *ton* of confusion out there about it. So here I am. Potentially creating the very quagmire I wanted to avoid by speaking honestly and openly about all the facts and circumstances -- but doing it because I don't want to repeat a mistake I made before, the one where friends of mine, and core members of our contributing community end up having to walk away from our little project here. God knows, I do not want to create drama and/or hard feelings. This is pathetic, but I literally don't have the energy for it right now. I know that people who have developed new loyalties to BII, based on promises of income and/or unprecedented exposure to the Buckeye program, may well feel stung by what I have, or have had to say here, and I can only say that I hope they'll look past any perceived slights, and try to appreciate that sometimes openly airing out an issue, and being public about problems, can still be a healthy thing.

BII/SGN is designed to make BP irrelevant. It's designed to leech the community from here to there. It is not, in any way, complimentary.

Whether this is innocent, or some sort of nefarious scheme, I have no idea. Different people have different takes, I'm trying to not concern myself with the 'why', and rather focus on the 'what now?'

My take thusfar is that BP has something that NO other site could just steal. And that's an empowered, energetic and vibrant community of fans. Fans who know that this is their home to decorate and manipulate as they please. BP is *NOT* "Clarity's Site". It's YOUR site, and his site, and hers, and theirs, etc. This isn't a line. It's not a pitch or a tool. It's how this place HAS to be in order to be of real value to us. As I said before, it has to be a living organism where parts (people/staff) can come and go. Bucknutty and Buckskin86 move on, and LordJeffBuck, Wadc and Highstreet step up. Highstreet moves on, and LordJeff, Wadc, and others carry forward seemlessly. Somewhere out there, someone else is thinking about or ready to step up. We'll get a PM or an email saying "I've been thinking about doing X, Y and/or Z, would that be cool with you?" My response will be as it always is -- yeah, run with it and let's see what comes of it. We need to be liquid, dynamic, and in a perpetual state of live tinkering and improvement. I've drawn this parallel before, and here it is again. We're the open source Buckeye site, where, when someone comes up with a brilliant notion for a great new feature -- they either suggest it and someone runs with it, or they run with it themselves, or a group gets together and implements it.

You can't steal that, you can't take away the feeling of community we have around here, you can't simply usurp the sense of ownership that a lot of people have here, and more people need to get.

I may be naive -- but I don't think Alan, or ANYONE over at BII/SGN, is overtly trying to lessen BP by presenting a near exact clone of it. As these people came from BP, I believe they still appreciate it as a family, and I choose to believe that their current implementation of that site just comes from their appreciation of what BP is, and how it functions. It's easy to like something so much, that when you create something new and different, you borrow themes. In this case, certainly more than themes were borrowed, they've created BuckeyePlanet2.

Will it stay that way? I have no idea. I know that Alan is trying to find his way over there, trying to form a vision for the future of the site. I would personally like to see it as a purely subscription based inside info area. No dicking around, news and perspective from a distinctly insider-level of access, in exchange for your dollars. The type of place that focuses on one thing, and strives to do that better than anyone else. A site like that, would own the commercial level competition, or at least could. A site like that would indeed compliment BP. Indeed, it would compliment all the sites in the greater community (despite eating into the reach of the other two commercial sites), and bring something to the online Buckeye community that it doesn't already have. But that's MY vision for what BII should be. It's not necessarily anyone else's. As things stand now, BII/SGN's vision is to be everything. To be viral and community-driven like BP, to be a Housteauesque "wink" and a nod towards subscriber areas like BN. To have access to inside info and rumblings the way Conley and BSB used to. To be wide spectrum focused across sport lines like the O-Zone.

But to be all of that, in the shape, form and function of BP.

The truth is I felt a bit like I had been kicked in the gut when I first saw the "new" BII/SGN. But I wanted to avoid controversy and problems, so I sent off fairly quiet and subdued notes to LloydSev and Alan to express my concern, but to do it as non-confrontationally as possible.

I still wish to avoid controversy, drama and hurt feelings. But my first responsibility and obligation is to BP, and definitely to the core group of people here at BP who make it what it is. Staying silent, asking them not to provoke drama, suggesting we just ride it out and hope for the best -- all the while fielding questions and PMs from users who want to know what's going on -- eh, it was just the wrong way to approach it. So here I am.

Guys like 3yards get on and spend hours every day updating news and keeping the admin side of things turning -- not because they'll get money or access down the road -- but because they genuinely love bringing something back to the community they draw so much from. osugrad21 takes on more than he should have to in my absence, even shields me from some problems when I'm not 100% -- not because being an admin is some sort of ego boost, not because he expects to make anything from it, but because he shares the almost utopian concept of a living community that I hold so important. That's two examples, but look around, I could literally go on and on and on, listing people who have stepped forward in different areas, and instead of just enjoying what BP has to offer, they choose to bring more to the table. That is how and why BP is (in my eyes) a raving success. I couldn't possibly care less about traffic numbers. If there's an exodus of users someday for any reason, as long as 'the core' is here, BP still stands as my home online. Not because I founded it, not because I'm involved with shaping it, but because this is my other family.

That can't be copied.

I support BII/SGN. I hope it's successful, because it's an opportunity for Alan, and some other people over there, to do what they love. That's an outstanding thing. I mean to help them any way I can. I think there's a lot of potential over there. Despite voicing my concerns, and sharing my perspective, I don't want to cast them in an unfavorable light. BII/SGN is in NO way directly affiliated with BP. It is not AT ALL a part or an extension of BP. But the people driving it have all been part of BP in the past, and I hope most or all of them will continue to be in the future. I think their current implementation of BII was a mistake, but that's my perspective.

The bottom line is that BP is going nowhere. We are just going to keep doing things our way, and let that take us where it will. There will always be bumps along the way, and I just need to bear in mind that, in the spirit of the approach we have to the BP forums, I'm better off speaking openly about issues, than just silently feeling upset and/or betrayed and hoping it will just all work out.

I believe that, with good intentions, and under pressure to roll something more impressive out, BII/SGN just said "BP works, let's present that as a starting point". Believing that would satisfy those they needed to, and provide a good starting point. The problem with that is that BII should be an entirely different species. It's apples and oranges, and while mirroring BP may have been an easy solution, it's the wrong foundation for the type of building they want to create. What I'm saying is, I don't think they meant it, or want it, to be a slap towards us. They don't want to steal from BP, or take over. Not most of them, at least.

Unfortunately I also believe there is a lot of doubletalk over there, internally. I think things are said in one light, and then other things are just done in another. I think some are saying what people want to hear, and that others are hearing only what they want to. These are all BII/SGN issues though, not BP issues.

I don't want anyone to come away from what I've had to say here feeling poorly. At the end of the day, I just felt like I had to be clear about everything, open about everything, and head any more questions or discussions about intent, the future, etc. off, and let people know where I stand.

I hope we'll find a point in the future where BII/SGN stands on its own and *does* compliment BP, all the while bringing something fantastic to the community. I think everyone would like to see that. And where I can assist towards that end, I will.

--edit--

One final note. This is not about BII/SGN 'looking' or 'feeling' like BP. It's about intent and direction. A question of focus. The concerns people have are based upon SGN being sold to us as a site exclusively dedicated to insider information, focused on and dedicated to that point of interest. Instead, it's been launched as BPplus. All encompassing, same forums, even a few more. Same features. Same direction. Even an opening pitch about community, despite the giant mention up top about the $49.95. Because people care about BP, they don't want to see it compromised or threatened.

The goal of my ridiculous long post here is to AVERT drama, not create it. Prevent misunderstandings and misconceptions.

This is NOT a case of a bruised ego on my end, BP isn't a vanity site for me, on the contrary, I try to take as low a profile as possible. I've always said that if BP ever found itself to be irrelevant, I'd quietly shut it down, and do so with a smile for what we accomplished. So don't feel like I'm mobilizing the troops, or creating some sort of defensive posture. Just airing out the issues. I suspect 90% who read this will come in total unaware that there's an issue at all. That's good, exit feeling the same. :)
 
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I must be living under a rock as I had no idea any of this was going on. The only piece of this that concerns me is the possibility that suggestions for improving this site (which were offered freely to a not-for-profit site) might be used to enhance the value of a "for profit" site. I would hope that anyone who does this would at least return the favor for what was "leveraged" by making these tools available to this site as well.
 
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I'm not goin anywhere either, I realize my name was mentioned with BII. I would like to mention one thing.........Alan was having a rough time getting a nice setup and good feeling website at first. I honestly dont see them trying to copy BP by any means, but vBulletin is about the most complete, and best laid out software. I personally dont like it to be honest, but it's very easy to use, and you dont have to spend $10k to get someone to design a site for you. Regardless, I am not a web designer, computer genius, etc......but anything that someone asks of me for BP, I will do my best to help with.
 
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This is still the best place to be. They should go strictly to a pay site, otherwise they're just reinventing the wheel. Actually, that place is eerily similar to early BN. All the so-called "experts" are hanging out on the free boads to generate a buzz, and sooner or later they'll scurry back to the premium areas, leaving the free area to shit.
 
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BrutusMaximus said:
I'm not goin anywhere either, I realize my name was mentioned with BII. I would like to mention one thing.........Alan was having a rough time getting a nice setup and good feeling website at first. I honestly dont see them trying to copy BP by any means, but vBulletin is about the most complete, and best laid out software. I personally dont like it to be honest, but it's very easy to use, and you dont have to spend $10k to get someone to design a site for you. Regardless, I am not a web designer, computer genius, etc......but anything that someone asks of me for BP, I will do my best to help with.

I think it's easy to misunderstand a few things about my mess of a post, so I'll try and clean them up as succinctly as possible (or as I can get, anyway) here.

- I knew weeks ago they were switching to vB, I was and am all for it. I think it's the best software (while agreeing with your general assessment) for the job given the means. I have no problem with them using the same software, that would be petty. It's not about their vehicle, it's about their direction.

- This isn't an "either-or" deal. I'm not trying to "save" my userbase. "More Buckeye, the better". I've been saying that for years, and I hold it as a simple truth. I want people to hop back and forth between here and BN, here and OZ, here and BSB, here and BII, here and all the others -- whatever. All for it, 100%. BP can't and won't be everything to everyone, and one of my major goals for 2005 was fitting in as a member of the larger community better. DO visit BII. Do consider what they have to offer. This is not about "BP good, BII bad." At all. Good people are involved with BII. That's a simple and easy truth. Good people with good intentions.

- My post is to answer growing concerns and misconceptions that were stewing behind the scenes. In the form of PMs from a number of people inside our community, confused about BP's role and future relative to BII and its current direction. This wasn't some gigantic thing where everyone was deeply embroiled, but without a clean airing somewhere, it had the potential to get bigger, more confused, and potentially uglier. Why let that happen? Better to clear up any issues now.
 
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I heard someone say something like "Alan wants this site to be exactly about the Buckeyes, no "general discussions", etc. That is fine and dandy, but one reason you'll see alot of me here, because in the football and basketball off season, I like the normal off-topic chat. While I see that argument, I am sure that BII was, is, and always will be about bringing this content forth to make money, albeit not the only reason, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's what us capitalists do :)

I do hope that it doesnt turn into BN, because I loathe the place, and am proud to say I am banned.
 
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Thanks for the explaination Clarity. Typical no-nonsense post from you, not hiding the ball and just speaking freely. That's what keeps a lot us here, the freedom to say what we say in the way we say it. I don't know for sure, but when you pay for things, the expectation changes, and I think BII will find "policing" to be a bigger problem than maybe anticipated.... Or, I could know nothing about it. IN any event, I'm sure after some growing pains BP and BII will co-exist.

A lot of people have a lot of loyalty to the site that has been built here. A lot of those same people can wait a few days or weeks for the insider info become free info. That's part of the risk that Alan, or anyone with a pay site, takes with his endevour. Me, for example, I don't care how good the intel is, I'm not paying for it. It just doesn't mean that much to me. Didn't pay at BN, don't subscribe to rivals, etc... I love keeping as "up to speed" as I can, but I don't need to drop my money to do it. I hope enough people DO drop their money so Alan can realize what is clearly a dream of his.

I will miss the fact that the things Alan learns and used to tell us will now be withheld for pay, but I can't fault the guy for trying to make a living doing what he WANTS to do.

I ramble... This site has already built it's rep. is what I'm driving at, and that doesn't just go away because something new comes along. Progress is fine in my book. What I love most about BP is still here. I don't know what BII may end up looking like in a year, but I know that BP will still be exactly what I've come to like about it. I don't think that's leaving any time soon, and if it did leave, I seriously doubt it could stay away for very long.
 
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The greatest shame in this thread is only that its rare to see more than one great post award on a single page. Fact is many here have eloquently voiced their support for BP, and uttered expressions of hope that SGN will find its own feet and get of to a running start.

Looking at the events of the recent days through the lens of the exchanges here -- and on SGN -- it seems clear that one simple action might have avoided a great deal of confusion. A clear and distinctive front page design by SGN. Based on the exchanges at SGN it seems it is exactly their intention to make a front page, with a unique design that lets the SGN subscriber-base easily access the information culled by Alan and his cohort runners. Personally (from an aesthetic viewpoint) I feel that should be a simple newspaper metaphor. A skin that links one layer deeper to the riches within. Had that design metaphor (or some other quite different SGN-unique style) been offered as their kick-off page, I believe much of the ensuing storm would have been avoidable.

I appluad SGN's intentions to move in the direction of a unique interface, one that doesn't look or feel like a Scarlet and Gray on White version of BP's opening page.

As for BP -- well what can you say. The real strength here is the community. Its a pay-as-you-go operation from what I can telll. Heavens knows how all the volunteers manage to keep up with the traffic and adminsitrative duties. Like Brutus Maximus says -- it goes beyond being a dispenser of news about the Buckeyes or Recruiting when the football (or basketball) seasons are over. Frankly that was the most pleasant surpirse for me, the continued healthy back-and-forth in what would otherwise be known in the news trade as the silly season. The Buckeye media vault which already exists here, and which others are planning to help grow is, I believe, a unique asset -- and it all comes about because someone cares to help, or is willing to share. No matter whether I subscribe to SGN, BN or BSB at any price, that kind of real community, like a town or village where I can cadge a Buckeye video -- and a beer -- that to me is part of what makes this place priceless .. and definitely worth supporting.
 
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Thank you so much Clarity for addressing these issues. I am, indeed, guilty of sending a PM to get a feel for whether or not I was just imagining things. I know that when this whole thing started, that I was in a serious minority in my concerns. The things that I love about Buckeye Planet are the posters, the Admin/Mods, and the overall format of the board. Buckeye planet is pretty much just a community. It’s a place to come and shoot the shit. The other site now has the same overall format of this board, many of the posters from here have been lured over to there (I know that most are still posting here as well, but at some point most will probably choose to hang out on one board or the other), and I was wondering whether or not the Admins/Mods were packing up too. They have basically taken what has been built over here and used it as a starting point to grow from. I, personally, am content right here.
 
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Unfortunately, I've learned this lesson the hard way many times. Anytime something rises up and is successful the way BP has been, the community will see factions rise up and go their own way. In all my previous experiences in this, one thing has remained constant: While the breakaway groups may be successful in their own right...they never quite have the same feel of the original.

The most accurate point that Clarity makes is that the forums, look and feel, and even some of the posters can be duplicated...but the community itself cannot be copied.

This site has become a living & breathing entity with an intangible quality that I have grown to love. I think the site is a direct reflection of it's core and especially it's creator...Clarity has been a consistant, unwavering and yet completely selfless force through all of this. Although I was vaguely aware of the political situations that have been rising up, I NEVER ONCE had any doubt that the site wouldn't stray from it's original goal. There is too much integrity in every area of leadership here...the trust I have in these guys is something that cannot be replicated.

I'm happy that Alan has found his niche and will earn money from something he loves...I wish all of us could be so lucky. As a friend and fellow Buckeye, I hope he succeeds beyond his wildest dreams. That being said, my fanaticism reached a new level because of this site and I love it here.

Clarity, hope things are turning around for you. You've remained in my prayers through the past several months. Send my best wishes to your wife and brother as well. Keep in good spirits...football season is just around the bend.
 
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scUM Buster said:
Thank you so much Clarity for addressing these issues. I am, indeed, guilty of sending a PM to get a feel for whether or not I was just imagining things. I know that when this whole thing started, that I was in a serious minority in my concerns. The things that I love about Buckeye Planet are the posters, the Admin/Mods, and the overall format of the board. Buckeye planet is pretty much just a community. It’s a place to come and shoot the shit. The other site now has the same overall format of this board, many of the posters from here have been lured over to there (I know that most are still posting here as well, but at some point most will probably choose to hang out on one board or the other), and I was wondering whether or not the Admins/Mods were packing up too. They have basically taken what has been built over here and used it as a starting point to grow from. I, personally, am content right here.

These concerns, and those like them, are entirely valid -- and my silent approach was doing nothing but leading to more confusion and speculation. My mistake entirely. I guess I worried that merely speaking out about the issue would lead to drama -- not sure who I didn't trust entirely there, me, those I'd be talking about, or those reading it. I think mostly me.

Bottom line is that my approach has always been that openly discussing an issue is better than letting it fester, and I should have maintained that on this issue from from get go.

Like anything else, we'll all move past this (both sites), and will hopefully be better for it.

Growing pains, nothing more.
 
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Buckeyeskickbuttocks said:
A lot of people have a lot of loyalty to the site that has been built here. A lot of those same people can wait a few days or weeks for the insider info become free info. That's part of the risk that Alan, or anyone with a pay site, takes with his endevour. Me, for example, I don't care how good the intel is, I'm not paying for it. It just doesn't mean that much to me. Didn't pay at BN, don't subscribe to rivals, etc... I love keeping as "up to speed" as I can, but I don't need to drop my money to do it. I hope enough people DO drop their money so Alan can realize what is clearly a dream of his.

I will miss the fact that the things Alan learns and used to tell us will now be withheld for pay, but I can't fault the guy for trying to make a living doing what he WANTS to do.
This sums up my feelings, also.
 
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You had me at "Not even sure how to start this..."

Since I originally started posting on BN a few years back I have gained two things from the extensive and complicated OSU Cyberspace community.

The first is information about the team I love. I get that mostly here but also from BN, BSB, and the Ozone.

The second is a sense of family. I never would have thought that if someone asked me to make a list of my best friends some would be people I had never met. But that is the case.

I will continue to get info where I can get it, but the core of that family for me lies on this site and I don't see that changing.
 
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