• Follow us on Twitter @buckeyeplanet and @bp_recruiting, like us on Facebook! Enjoy a post or article, recommend it to others! BP is only as strong as its community, and we only promote by word of mouth, so share away!
  • Consider registering! Fewer and higher quality ads, no emails you don't want, access to all the forums, download game torrents, private messages, polls, Sportsbook, etc. Even if you just want to lurk, there are a lot of good reasons to register!

Bleed S & G

Taking Crazy Pills
The conversation in the other thread got me thinking..

Deuteronomy Chapter 4 said:
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars?all the heavenly array?do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
Sun, Moon, and the Stars are mentioned specifically..

2831857016_2e15f21025.jpg


2117470838_2b79b775f2.jpg


islam-moon-goddess.jpg


Found the "logos" or "symbols" of the faiths of Abraham to be interesting
 
Bleed S & G;1388202; said:
The conversation in the other thread got me thinking..


Sun, Moon, and the Stars are mentioned specifically..

I think where you are going wrong with this whole sun/son conflation is that their homophonic similarity is confined to modern English, and going back etymologically they diverge with Old English and come from completely unrelated root words ("shine" vs "give birth"), while you're trying to posit some kind of relationship that goes back to the roots of Christianity at least and far predates any kind of English. I'd have to see some kind of Aramaic/Hebrew/Greek linguistic connection between those two concepts to go any further with that idea.

Clever people have pointed out many superficial similarities between Christianity and other forms of pagan/sun worship, much like Dan Brown did in convincing so many people that Jesus married Mary Magdalene. Fun stuff, sure, but not convincing.
 
Upvote 0
muffler dragon;1388205; said:
At what point in time have Jews bowed down to the Magen (Star) David? Or are you just being metaphorical on that account?
Metaphorical.

Question - how did the Star of David become a symbol for the Jews?

Isn't the Menorah the symbol G-d gave? Why isn't that on the flag for the state of Israel?

Btw, for me, v. 15 is magnificent! "no form of any kind" is pretty foundational.
I agree - it's very cool!
 
Upvote 0
BayBuck;1388230; said:
Clever people have pointed out many superficial similarities between Christianity and other forms of pagan/sun worship, much like Dan Brown did in convincing so many people that Jesus married Mary Magdalene. Fun stuff, sure, but not convincing.
Dan Brown is a joke.. those same people who were convinced of something like that have never bothered to take the time to read the scripture and teachings their G-d left behind.

There is much more than just the "sun"/"son" argument..

  • Horus existed before incarnation
  • Born to the virgin Isis in a cave on December 25th
  • Birth was announced by a star in the east
  • Horus as an infant escaped from Egypt to avoid Typhon (Jesus and Herod)
  • Horus was a child teacher
  • He was baptized by Anup around the age of 30
  • He had 12 disciples
  • He walked on water
  • He raised Al-Azar-us from the dead
  • He was crucified and resurrected
  • Was called KRST or "The Anointed One"
I've got some research to do on something BGrad pointed out - he thinks that the egyptians changed Horus to have these qualities after coming into contact with early Christians.
 
Upvote 0
Bleed S & G;1388231; said:
Metaphorical.

Question - how did the Star of David become a symbol for the Jews?

Judaism 101: Signs and Symbols

The Magen David (Shield of David, or as it is more commonly known, the Star of David) is the symbol most commonly associated with Judaism today, but it is actually a relatively new Jewish symbol. It is supposed to represent the shape of King David's shield (or perhaps the emblem on it), but there is really no support for that claim in any early rabbinic literature. The symbol is not mentioned in rabbinic literature until the middle ages, and is so rare in early Jewish literature and artwork that art dealers suspect forgery if they find the symbol in early Jewish works.

Scholars such as Franz Rosenzweig have attributed deep theological significance to the symbol. For example, some note that the top triangle strives upward, toward G-d, while the lower triangle strives downward, toward the real world. Some note that the intertwining makes the triangles inseparable, like the Jewish people. Some say that the three sides represent the three types of Jews: Kohanim, Levites and Israel. Some note that there are actually 12 sides (3 exterior and 3 interior on each triangle), representing the 12 tribes. While these theories are theologically interesting, they have little basis in historical fact.
The symbol of intertwined equilateral triangles is a common one in the Middle East and North Africa, and is thought to bring good luck. It appears occasionally in early Jewish artwork, but never as an exclusively Jewish symbol. The nearest thing to an "official" Jewish symbol at the time was the menorah.
In the middle ages, Jews often were required to wear badges to identify themselves as Jews, much as they were in Nazi Germany, but these Jewish badges were not always the familiar Magen David. For example, a fifteenth century painting by Nuno Goncalves features a rabbi wearing a six-pointed badge that looks more or less like an asterisk.
In the 17th century, it became a popular practice to put Magen Davids on the outside of synagogues, to identify them as Jewish houses of worship in much the same way that a cross identified a Christian house of worship; however, I have never seen any explanation of why this symbol was chosen, rather than some other symbol.
The Magen David gained popularity as a symbol of Judaism when it was adopted as the emblem of the Zionist movement in 1897, but the symbol continued to be controversial for many years afterward. When the modern state of Israel was founded, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag. Today, the Magen David is the universally recognized symbol of Jewry. It appears on the flag of the state of Israel, and the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross is known as the Red Magen David.

Bleed said:
Isn't the Menorah the symbol G-d gave? Why isn't that on the flag for the state of Israel?

From the same link above:

One of the oldest symbols of the Jewish faith is the menorah, a seven-branched candelabrum used in the Temple. The kohanim lit the menorah in the Sanctuary every evening and cleaned it out every morning, replacing the wicks and putting fresh olive oil into the cups. The illustration at left is based on instructions for construction of the menorah found in Ex. 25:31-40.

It has been said that the menorah is a symbol of the nation of Israel and our mission to be "a light unto the nations." (Isaiah 42:6). The sages emphasize that light is not a violent force; Israel is to accomplish its mission by setting an example, not by using force. This idea is highlighted in the vision in Zechariah 4:1-6. Zechariah sees a menorah, and G-d explains: "Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit."
The lamp stand in today's synagogues, called the ner tamid (lit. the continual light, usually translated as the eternal flame), symbolizes the menorah. Many synagogues also have an ornamental menorah, usually with some critical detail changed (for example, with only 6 candles) to avoid the sin of reproducing objects of the Temple. The nine-branched menorah used on Chanukkah is commonly patterned after this menorah, because Chanukkah commemorates the miracle that a day's worth of oil for this menorah lasted eight days.

To answer your question specifically, "I don't know."
 
Upvote 0
Using pagan mythology as a means in which to make a "new" religion (Christianity) accessible to then non-believers strikes me as precisely what people would do.

As in:

See? Our religion isn't so "weird." You have your KRST we have our Christ... same deal. But, our story makes more sense and here's why.....

I guess what I'm saying is - when there are blatant similarities like this, it seems to be good evidence of a sales tactic and not so much about the truth of the matter asserted. (That said, my understanding is that the Horus stuff predates Jesus. If BGrad is correct that it was later changed (and for what purpose, I cannot understand) then it wouldn't be as strong).

As it is, I guess I still don't understand why a magical Jesus is so important to Christians. (I don't mean to be flip by using the word "magical")
 
Upvote 0
not exactly new there cheif... not sure where the "modern" part is coming from. if you want to get technical, this has existed from the very first day of true organized christianity.


133px-


im sure the others go back even further.
 
Upvote 0
Bleed S & G;1388241; said:
Dan Brown is a joke.. those same people who were convinced of something like that have never bothered to take the time to read the scripture and teachings their G-d left behind.

There is much more than just the "sun"/"son" argument..

  • Horus existed before incarnation
  • Born to the virgin Isis in a cave on December 25th
  • Birth was announced by a star in the east
  • Horus as an infant escaped from Egypt to avoid Typhon (Jesus and Herod)
  • Horus was a child teacher
  • He was baptized by Anup around the age of 30
  • He had 12 disciples
  • He walked on water
  • He raised Al-Azar-us from the dead
  • He was crucified and resurrected
  • Was called KRST or "The Anointed One"
I've got some research to do on something BGrad pointed out - he thinks that the egyptians changed Horus to have these qualities after coming into contact with early Christians.

I'm familiar with these various similarities, which are generally just a little too coincidental to be credible (and some are simply made up, like Horus having 12 disciples) and have all been posited (or post-dated as BGrad suggests) in very recent times. There's a whole bunch of internet speculation on the similarities but not much in the way of established scholarship.
 
Upvote 0
BayBuck;1388272; said:
I'm familiar with these various similarities, which are generally just a little too coincidental to be credible (and some are simply made up, like Horus having 12 disciples) and have all been posited (or post-dated as BGrad suggests) in very recent times. There's a whole bunch of internet speculation on the similarities but not much in the way of established scholarship.
Fair.

I found an interesting "preview" for a book on the Star of David while trying to research it:

The first mention of the star was in Amos 5:26 regarding the trek from Egypt to Canaan. Then in 922 B.C., when Solomon married the daughter of Pharoah and went into magic and witchcraft and built an altar to Ashtoroth and Moloch. The book traces the six pointed star from Egypt to Solomon, to Arab Magic and Witchcraft, to Druid use(references are documented). The book traces the star through Freemasonry usage to Mayer Amschel Bauer, who, in the 17th century, changed his name to depict the red six-pointed star (or shield) which he had hung on his door in Germany, and thus began the family of "Red Shield" or Rothschild. The research carried on through this family, to their court of arms, to Cabala, to Astrology, to Hitler and his putting a yellow six-pointed star on all Jews during the holocaust, to the Zionist symbol, and finally to the flag of the State of Israel and beyond.

Because this symbol is comprised of a six within a six within a six (6 points, 6 triangles, 6 sides of the hexagon in the middle) the research also included a look at the 666 prophecies in the Book of Daniel etc., regarding the "wilful King" (anti-Christ) and the "mark of the beast". The Scriptural significance of the number seven and a Biblical description of the real Messiah and the seven-branched Candlestick (Menorah) which God gave to the children of Israel as an everlasting covenant (which is also mentioned in the New Testament) is covered. All the sources are written at the bottom of each page making it easy for readers to see and check for themselves.

I started out to defend this symbol, but ended up shocked and quite devasted with the evidence gleaned from the academic research. It is the only book on the origin and history of the six-pointed star or hexagram. Have a good read, check the references yourself, and I would be happy to hear your comments. All the best to you
666 - "Star of David?"
 
Upvote 0
Buckeyeskickbuttocks;1388255; said:
As it is, I guess I still don't understand why a magical Jesus is so important to Christians. (I don't mean to be flip by using the word "magical")

Really? Then you don't have a very sound understanding of Christianity.

If Jesus did not perform miracles then he is not a savior. If He did not have a virgin birth then he is not a savior.

The very essence of Christianity relies on Jesus "magic."
 
Upvote 0
DontHateOState;1388633; said:
Really? Then you don't have a very sound understanding of Christianity.

If Jesus did not perform miracles then he is not a savior. If He did not have a virgin birth then he is not a savior.

The very essence of Christianity relies on Jesus "magic."

Interesting.

1) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be a miracle worker?
2) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be born of a virgin?

If you're interested, I can provide you with a list of criteria that the Jewish Messiah will fulfill in one lifetime. Neither of the two points above are on the list of important criteria.
 
Upvote 0
DontHateOState;1388633; said:
Really? Then you don't have a very sound understanding of Christianity.

If Jesus did not perform miracles then he is not a savior. If He did not have a virgin birth then he is not a savior.

The very essence of Christianity relies on Jesus "magic."

See:

muffler dragon;1388704; said:
Interesting.

1) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be a miracle worker?
2) Where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the Messiah will be born of a virgin?

If you're interested, I can provide you with a list of criteria that the Jewish Messiah will fulfill in one lifetime. Neither of the two points above are on the list of important criteria.

But, more to the point for me (Muffler is much better at textural arguments that I) is that I have never once seen anything unnatural in this universe. Not once. A G-d that works through the nature he created, instead of in spite of it, seems to me much more probable to me.

David Blaine does a lot of things I don't understand.... but... I don't confuse him with a god... Likewise, his ability to do what he does is unlikely to make me think he has been given some special authority by G-d. Christianity, to me (and I don't intend to be insulting here), is based on this same idea... miracles are supposed to sound impressive to the listener.. supposed to set Jesus apart from man in some spooky or unscientific way.... that, to me, is just ridiculous. There's no need for it. And, frankly, I don't even see the need for Jesus - as a personal matter - at all. I take blame for my own sin. I talk to G-d directly, with no intermediary and have success.

Anyway, Zeus was running around getting real life Greek chicks pregnant..... I don't believe those stories either.
 
Upvote 0
I've never understood the Catholic ritual of confession. Why not just confess/repent directly to God. Isn't that what prayer is for ?

In simplistic terms, religion/Christianity is just what you make of it, what you truly believe.

I'm a believer but feel no need to criticize those who are not or those who are on the other extreme end.
 
Upvote 0
Back
Top