PBS Special on Mormon Church

[afgolfer]

not to bring up otehr religions, but i dont hear eople attacking the catholic church because they dont have woman priests? as a matter of fact they rarely if ever allow married men to be called Father.... ( I know of two when I was growing up)

 

[AKAK]

Oh... err... Christ ... this isn't going anywhere good...

 

[Bleed S & G]

Yes it is true that marraige is not a necessity in the mormon religion. The question was "Why don't they allow women to lead their own congregation?" The real answer is more complex than I stated because you would have to understand their "Plan of Salvation"

Plan of Salvation
Main article: Plan of Salvation
See also: Degrees of Glory and Exaltation (Mormonism) According to Smith, all of mankind lived with Heavenly Father in the spirit before they were born, and that men continue to live in the spirit after their physical bodies die. He taught that the reason that mankind is on earth is to progress, and that this life is but a single step in our eternal progression, and part of the Plan of Salvation.
Smith taught that all mankind, good and bad alike, will be resurrected and become immortal, receiving back their bodies whole. It is a gift from God provided by Jesus' Atonement. He taught that after the resurrection, "all men will come from the grave as they lie down; whether old or young, there will not be added unto their stature one cubit, neither taken from it." [5]
However, those who repent and are worthy will receive greater blessings, the greatest of which is Eternal Life, which is to live with God in the Celestial Kingdom. Those who were not as valiant, or did not receive ordinances necessary for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom, would enter the Terrestrial Kingdom. Those who were disobedient and unrepentant would enter the Telestial Kingdom.
Many of those who enter the Celestial Kingdom may be worthy for Deification (Exaltation), where mankind, as children of God, can eventually become co-inheritors with Christ and inherit all that the Father has ? in simple terms, to become like God.

Wiki

I guess I don't get what you're getting at

Anyways, golfer.. whatever floats your boat man.. to use BKBs phrase there are infinte ways to find the infinte and I hope you've found one that works for you.. who am i to pass judgement.. my "church" has had more than it's fair share of probelms thats for sure.

 

[afgolfer]

I dont know what you are getting at -- yes the plan of salvation is what the church teaches. here is a better like than wikipedia as anyone can post and have things added to the site --anyone remember the postings of the 2006 tOSU vs uM score being 100-0 in thier favor?

here is a good link to some information or just go to the church website -- we dont try to hide what we believe.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dsscheibe/theplans.htm

All I am getting at is what joy do people have in bashing my faith? does that make them feel better? I dont condemn other religions or attack them. i guess if it makes them feel like they are accomplishing something, i just dont see what is to gain

 

[Gatorubet]

here is a good link to some information or just go to the church website -- we dont try to hide what we believe.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dsscheibe/theplans.htm

Unless you want to enter the Temple and see for yourself...

All I am getting at is what joy do people have in bashing my faith? does that make them feel better? I dont condemn other religions or attack them. i guess if it makes them feel like they are accomplishing something, i just dont see what is to gain

That is the problem I have with the LDS Church. Ya'll simply don't want your doctrines widely discussed because of negative effects on recruiting. I have no problem with you believing anything you want. I have a small issue with you calling yourselves "Christians", since you deny the Trinity, say that God was a man on another Planet, and that men can become Gods on other planets too... You say that God has a physical body, and that he and Mary created Jesus. Which is all okey doke to me that you believe that.

But your official recruiting position is to say "We're Christians", and not tell them of the parts that you know will sound kooky until after the new member has already joined. You even have a phrase for withholding that info, "Milk before Meat." Sounds like a rationale for not being upfront. And I don't feel like I'm "accomplishing something" other than general discussion and an honest exhange of information. If I am wrong about stuff, and I might be, I would welcome any correction that you might care to show me. I won't get mad in any event. Heck, feel free to tee off on the PCUSA.

 

[afgolfer]

anyone can go to the temple before it is dedicated. and the only requirement to get into one afterwards is by getting a recommend from the Bishop -- no more, no less


If you ask a missionary a question, they should tell you what you want to know or answer legitamate questions. Though you may call it recruiting, missionary work is all about the individual. We dont force anyone to do anyhting.. We teach the fundamentals of what we believe and ask people to pray about it them to find for THEMSELVES if it is true. All i can do is share what i believe and let them make the decision for myself. I joined the church as a convert three years ago and it has brough nothing but blessings in my life. If you truely felt you have found truth and believed it, would you not want to share that with others -- whether they believe the same is on them, no hard feelings.

Lastly -- what is the the definition of Christian? Is it christian to condemn someone elses religion or try to belittle them? (blanket statement, not directed at you) Is a christian not someone who believes that through the atonement of jesus christ we can be forgiven for our sins through repentance?


here are the articles of faith of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul?We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

 

[afgolfer]

Also, some on here seem to think that a prophet can do no wrong or has to be someone w/out sin. Look in the Bible for many examples to the contrary. The only perfect person was Christ -- someone we as christians try to emulate, but on this earth we all fall short and sin.

 

[Gatorubet]

anyone can go to the temple before it is dedicated. and the only requirement to get into one afterwards is by getting a recommend from the Bishop -- no more, no less

Which is like being allowed in the stadium before there is a game, but not during.:tongue2:

If you ask a missionary a question, they should tell you what you want to know or answer legitamate questions. Though you may call it recruiting, missionary work is all about the individual. We dont force anyone to do anything..

Never said you did.

We teach the fundamentals of what we believe and ask people to pray about it them to find for THEMSELVES if it is true.

Don't want to argue, but by the "fundamentals" you specifically do not share some of the aspects of doctrine that are - um - the most interesting to traditional Chrisitans. Not saying you are evil. Just my opinion that it is a significant enough change in theology that withholding it till later seems - well - let's just say I'd like to hear it up front if it were me

All i can do is share what i believe and let them make the decision for myself. I joined the church as a convert three years ago and it has brough nothing but blessings in my life. If you truely felt you have found truth and believed it, would you not want to share that with others -- whether they believe the same is on them, no hard feelings.

Heck, if you did not think it worth sharing, it would not be worth knowing. I'm glad that you find it a blessing. As I've said, I have known many wonderful LDS folks. Never said you wore horns and worshiped Lloyd Carr....it was never my intent to belittle you in your beliefs.

Lastly -- what is the the definition of Christian? Is it christian to condemn someone elses religion or try to belittle them? (blanket statement, not directed at you) Is a christian not someone who believes that through the atonement of jesus christ we can be forgiven for our sins through repentance?

To belittle? No. See do unto others.

But there is no blinking way that it is correct to label your beliefs as "Christian". You have listed the articles of faith, and I thank you.

But it does not spell out or mention certain key LDS beliefs: that we are born from "spirit children", that God was a man on another planet....or that Thump can be a God on another Planet if he becomes LDS and advances in knowlege.

As Christians are saved by grace, not works, the fact that you believe that we won't find salvation without our participation in certain Temple rituals (and I'm not talking baptism) sets you apart from most Christian denominations. i do not note a clear reference to the fact that you belive that Jesus appeared to a race of lost tribes of Israel in America, and that native americans are descended from them. This is not minor stuff.

Again, I'm happy you are happy. I am happy that we can agree to disagree. But as long as DNA shows that the native americans are linked to those guys on the other side of the Berring Straight, and not Israel, and as long as there is no archeological proof that supports the Book of Mormon, I'll remain a heathen Presbyterian. You have a better choir tho...

 

[StooGrimson]

not to bring up otehr religions, but i dont hear eople attacking the catholic church because they dont have woman priests? as a matter of fact they rarely if ever allow married men to be called Father.... ( I know of two when I was growing up)

The Catholic Church has been rightfully hammered on those points for quite some time now. Just b/c it hasn't been taken to task for its issues/problems/hypocrisy on this board lately, doesn't mean folks don't recognize the issues you've presented. Frankly, the Church has been faced with bigger, more embarrassing, criminal issues in the recent years that make female priesthood and celebacy look like minor speedbumps.

 

[jwinslow]

NOW and other groups have taken Catholic & Christian denominations to task for decades over women priests/pastors. Not sure where you're getting the idea that they're skating by free. Female leadership is not one of the larger objections to LDS anyway.

 

[Bleed S & G]

To belittle? No. See do unto others.

But there is no blinking way that it is correct to label your beliefs as "Christian". You have listed the articles of faith, and I thank you.

But it does not spell out or mention certain key LDS beliefs: that we are born from "spirit children", that God was a man on another planet....or that Thump can be a God on another Planet if he becomes LDS and advances in knowlege.

As Christians are saved by grace, not works, the fact that you believe that we won't find salvation without our participation in certain Temple rituals (and I'm not talking baptism) sets you apart from most Christian denominations. i do not note a clear reference to the fact that you belive that Jesus appeared to a race of lost tribes of Israel in America, and that native americans are descended from them. This is not minor stuff.

Again, I'm happy you are happy. I am happy that we can agree to disagree. But as long as DNA shows that the native americans are linked to those guys on the other side of the Berring Straight, and not Israel, and as long as there is no archeological proof that supports the Book of Mormon, I'll remain a heathen Presbyterian. You have a better choir tho...

Point being, the crap your flinging at him isn't very "christian" and the manner in which you're doing it.

 

[Gatorubet]

Point being, the crap your flinging at him isn't very "christian" and the manner in which you're doing it.

And frogs and locusts and televangelists shall fall on BleedS&G for forty days and forty nights!!

Where were we?? Oh yeah, crap flinging and bad "manner". What manner is that exactly? If he was advocating that the world was sitting on top of a giant Turtle, as one world religion does, would you consider it rude to point out that all core samples taken to date have not struck turtle, or would that be too mean also? (this is not intended as a backhand slap at LDS, just an example of the clearest religion/science rift I could think of)

I have not called him a name, tried to convert him to PCUSA, or uttered an example of LDS theology that does not have a factual basis. They are not "christian" in the eyes of 99.9% of self-professed Christian Churches for the reasons I mentioned. That does not make him a bad guy, or his religion a bad religion. But it does not make them Christian either, any more than a Muslim could call himself a Christian simply because they share large parts of the Old Testament. And it is only my opinion. His is the 0nly one that counts regarding his spiritual growth, and he is doing great in the LDS and obviously feels at home. Kudos to them both.

Sorry if you don't like any religious discussion that is not "Kum-bi-yah, let's all ignore any differences." There are differences. And it does not mean that I'm right on my flavor religious choice. But it also does not mean that I have to agree that we both are "Christians" given the doctrinal differences. Why is that a big hairy deal? I've admitted that I would accept any correction of erroneous beliefs regarding the LDS. Why my LDS buddy never wants to address the specific statements I make is interesting, but consistant with LDS training not to address specific doctrines that are not mainstream. Who knows? Maybe he agrees with you that my motive for posting is to bust his chops. Not my intent at all.

 

[afgolfer]

I just find it funny that you would say that I am not a christian just because another church doesnt think we are. what is your definition of a christian and why is it so important to say that i am not one? We take upon us the name of JESUS CHRIST.

here are some definitions from dictionary.com

Tell me which of these doesnt pertain to me?

1.of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings
2.of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ
3.of or pertaining to Christians
4.exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike
5.a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
6.a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ

 

[jwinslow]

I just find it funny that you would say that I am not a christian just because another church doesnt think we are.

You're dodging his arguments by asking another question... LDS has many major diversions from Christian theology. Could you address those points he raised? He's made a ton of them, yet you haven't addressed any.

If LDS theology is not in disagreement with Christian theology, then where are the specific rebuttals for his objections?

Why my LDS buddy never wants to address the specific statements I make is interesting, but consistant with LDS training not to address specific doctrines that are not mainstream.

 

[afgolfer]

To belittle? No. See do unto others.

But there is no blinking way that it is correct to label your beliefs as "Christian". You have listed the articles of faith, and I thank you.

But it does not spell out or mention certain key LDS beliefs: that we are born from "spirit children", that God was a man on another planet....or that Thump can be a God on another Planet if he becomes LDS and advances in knowlege.

As Christians are saved by grace, not works, the fact that you believe that we won't find salvation without our participation in certain Temple rituals (and I'm not talking baptism) sets you apart from most Christian denominations. i do not note a clear reference to the fact that you belive that Jesus appeared to a race of lost tribes of Israel in America, and that native americans are descended from them. This is not minor stuff.

Again, I'm happy you are happy. I am happy that we can agree to disagree. But as long as DNA shows that the native americans are linked to those guys on the other side of the Berring Straight, and not Israel, and as long as there is no archeological proof that supports the Book of Mormon, I'll remain a heathen Presbyterian. You have a better choir tho...

Actually, we believe that we were spirit children in the presence of our heavenly father and chose to come to earth to gain a body to one day return to live with our heavenly father.

What is your belief on how we came to be or why we are here?

You talk about temple "rituals", by what do you mean -- what do we do in temples?

As far was grace, that is true (partially) So, no matter what I do as long as I profess to know God, am I saved? I can continue to live a life contrary to the teachings of Christ and I am equal in the eyes of the Lord? Are there not certain works that are designated by Christ to be performed? Rpentence, Baptism, etc? Do we not turn away from sin and love one another as ourselves? Instead of just looking at paul, look at matthew as well, Faith without works is dead -- If we truely profess to be christians, and are true to that calling, it will show in our actions and how we treat people. This word "works" does not mean a certain position held, or so many prayers said. It is about how we live out lives.

IMO, saying you are saved doesnt make it so.

I contend that no matter what you say, I am a christian.