Yankees lose! Thaaaaaaa, Yankees LOSE!

[jwinslow]

I'm not arguing baseball's system is the best system, or even that it encourages parity. I'm arguing that hating on the Yankees for buying wins is stupid as all fuck.

I don't hate the yankees for buying wins, I hate the fact that they are guaranteed more consistent success via money. I hate that there is zero parity. I hate that if Bill Gates bought the Twins, he could buy every free agent he wanted and suddenly be head and shoulders ahead of most of the league.

Ohio State has a huge advantage due to money. So does New England, they can probably afford to do way more scouting, unless there are restrictions on that sort of thing (seems like some loophole could be found).

Was college football better when the best schools got all of the players, or when the scholarship limit created some semblance of parity? As an OSU recruiting fan, it seems annoying, but its a lot better for the game.

It begins and ends with parity. If it is a longshot at best every year to have parity, then it's a sport I will dislike. And since the yankees have been the pinnacle of that league, they garner my distaste.

 

[BB73]

Is there some reason the Reds can't get a big Local TV contract?
Is there any reason why the Twins aren't selling TV rights like Hot Cakes to North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana? Etc...

You've got to be shitting me, BKB!

It's called population density.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Yea, especially since they haven't won a WS in 5 years. How fitting.
It's still sweet when they get dumped out of the playoffs.

I know Slurpy is from NYC, but am wondering how the rest of you became Wankee fans?

I did time on Long Island for 3 years (By "doing time" I mean, I lived there) 1976 - 79. Actually, when I lived there I was more a Mets fan, but the 77 series was a blast... REG-GIE!!!.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I don't hate the yankees for buying wins, I hate the fact that they are guaranteed more consistent success via money. I hate that there is zero parity. I hate that if Bill Gates bought the Twins, he could buy every free agent he wanted and suddenly be head and shoulders ahead of most of the league.

Ohio State has a huge advantage due to money. So does New England, they can probably afford to do way more scouting, unless there are restrictions on that sort of thing (seems like some loophole could be found).

Was college football better when the best schools got all of the players, or when the scholarship limit created some semblance of parity? As an OSU recruiting fan, it seems annoying, but its a lot better for the game.

It begins and ends with parity. If it is a longshot at best every year to have parity, then it's a sport I will dislike. And since the yankees have been the pinnacle of that league, they garner my distaste.

You're arguing something different than my point, Josh. I don't disagree that parity is good for the game, furthermore, I don't think MLB is set up to enhance parity. MLB is what it is and the Yankees as well as every other MLB team is afforded the same opportunity to be "big market." I'm saying that people rippin on the Yankees because they "buy championships" is absurd. I don't know how to be more clear than that.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

You've got to be shitting me, BKB!

It's called population density.

Bullshit. There are enough people in Atlanta, Sandy Ego, Arizona, Minnesota, etc. to handle the same money as 1 NYC or Boston. It's a matter of interest not population. In the North East, and Sloops may confirm this - or Sushi, Sears or Manfred - Baseball is king .... even over football. That's why the Yankees have so much money - because people there care about how they do, much like OSU fans. Same thing with Boston.

Not true for Texas, or Florida, or even Cincy and Cleveland. Not true in Pittsburgh or Minnesota....

 

[jwinslow]

so it's just as easy to live anywhere in Minnesota and go to a twins baseball game, as it is to live in NYC and go to a Yankees game? That doesn't make much sense.

I would love to see glenville football play, but its a somewaht large time commitment to travel all the way up to cleveland. If they were within an hour, I would try and go to most of their games.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

I'm not arguing baseball's system is the best system, or even that it encourages parity. I'm arguing that hating on the Yankees for buying wins is stupid as all fuck.

only if you look at it purely as a business. I like to think of my sports as sports. thats not to say I don't recognize it as a business. I'm just not the type who roots for businesses.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

so it's just as easy to live anywhere in Minnesota and go to a twins baseball game, as it is to live in NYC and go to a Yankees game? That doesn't make much sense.

I would love to see glenville football play, but its a somewaht large time commitment to travel all the way up to cleveland. If they were within an hour, I would try and go to most of their games.

I assure you, the city of Minneapolis/St.Paul is sufficient in population enough to fill the baggie dome. There are pleanty of people who come in from Wisconsin for Twins games (my aunt and uncle included).

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

only if you look at it purely as a business. I like to think of my sports as sports. thats not to say I don't recognize it as a business. I'm just not the type who roots for businesses.

That's why I stick to college more (there's some business there too, but less of it). In the pro game, you can't discount the business aspect, as it's a huge part of the game... dealing with caps, etc.. You need a great GM to build a dominant team.

 

[TraderLee]

I'm arguing that hating on the Yankees for buying wins is stupid as all fuck.

No one said anything about hating the Yankees, just hating the system. We're glad to see someone in the playoffs who didn't spend a mint like the Yankees or Red Sox and bucked that system.

As far as the Reds you mentioned above, they have more problems than just the system:

1) Marge got rid of a lot of the scouts because they "just sat around and watched ball games".

2) They haven't developed a quality starting pitcher since Tom Browning.

3) Carl Lindner expects the team to make its own money.

As far as facilities and planning, the Reds HAVE a new ball park. It's a lot harder to fill it out of Cincy's population (even coutning the surrpunding areas) than the Yankees have trying to fill theirs out of New York's population. That's just basic arithmetic.

 

[jwinslow]

I assure you, the city of Minneapolis/St.Paul is sufficient in population enough to fill the baggie dome. There are pleanty of people who come in from Wisconsin for Twins games (my aunt and uncle included).

filling a dome is not what the problem is. Hockey arenas are filled around the nation, yet that doesn't mean they can sell any meaningful TV contract. One city, all within reasonable distance of going to a game on a flippant decision during the day, can support both the TV contract and the tickets. That's my argument. No doubt they are also helped by the love for baseball in the NE, that's clear.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

No one said anything about hating the Yankees, just hating the system. We're glad to see someone in the playoffs who didn't spend a mint like the Yankees or Red Sox and bucked that system.

One wonders why this thread is about the Yankmes loosing then....

As far as the Reds you mentioned above, they have more problems than just the system:

1) Marge got rid of a lot of the scouts because they "just sat around and watched ball games".

2) They haven't developed a quality starting pitcher since Tom Browning.

3) Carl Lindner expects the team to make its own money.

As far as facilities and planning, the Reds HAVE a new ball park. It's a lot harder to fill it out of Cincy's population (even coutning the surrpunding areas) than the Yankees have trying to fill theirs out of New York's population. That's just basic arithmetic.

1) Marge is a baseball moron, then. Too bad, so sad.

2) Reds developing pitching is not based on "the system" so much as not hiring good people. Hell, I think Stottlemyer isn't that great a pitching coach, what do you teach Randy Johnson? Nada. Give me the guy from the Braves or Florida any day of the week.

3) As is his perrogative as owner. You see it in the NBA as well, notably the Clippers.

I don't buy this "harder to fill out" business. I just don't. Cincy is a big enough place, and Northern KY is also big enough, and close enough, that if the Reds marketed better, and had a owner who wanted to "win at all costs" as it were, they'd fill up GAB every home date. If they wanted to sell TV rights, they'd do just fine.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

filling a dome is not what the problem is. Hockey arenas are filled around the nation, yet that doesn't mean they can sell any meaningful TV contract. One city, all within reasonable distance of going to a game on a flippant decision during the day, can support both the TV contract and the tickets. That's my argument. No doubt they are also helped by the love for baseball in the NE, that's clear.

Josh, I'm usually pretty good about responding to the point one makes, and my response to you was directly in regard to your contention that:

so it's just as easy to live anywhere in Minnesota and go to a twins baseball game, as it is to live in NYC and go to a Yankees game? That doesn't make much sense.

I would love to see glenville football play, but its a somewaht large time commitment to travel all the way up to cleveland. If they were within an hour, I would try and go to most of their games.

I thought that was clear when I quoted you. Now you're talking about something different. Make up your mind.

Selling a meaningful TV contract... Maybe I am just too sure of myself or something, but if you do market research, sell your product with a direction in mind and build a fan base you will make money. If you make said money and invest it in your team, i.e. New York, the cycle grows on itself. Thus you make even more money.

The thing is, if you're the Reds, for example, you have to make Reds Baseball more popular first. Now, I'm not saying that is an easy thing to do, especially in a place like Ohio where football is king. However, it is possible, and it should be one of the, if not THE, driving force in ownership. For me to maximize my income (as owner) I need to sell my product... to do that, I need to make people WANT to see my product. To do that, I must make a short term large capital investment. The more I risk, the more potential return.

Minneapolis Population (2000 census):
2,968,806

Boston:
Population: 600,000

Small market, indeed.

 

[jwinslow]

that's fair, I guess I did start the argument based on that. but from what hockey is doing, it seems like I raised the wrong point.

Minneapolis Population (2000 census):
2,968,806

From what I'm reading, Minneapolis has about 380k. Check the google results here.

I don't buy this "harder to fill out" business. I just don't. Cincy is a big enough place, and Northern KY is also big enough, and close enough, that if the Reds marketed better, and had a owner who wanted to "win at all costs" as it were, they'd fill up GAB every home date. If they wanted to sell TV rights, they'd do just fine.

Why are there way better entertainment facilities in NYC tahn in Cinci? I think you are arguing a fine (but misguided IMO) case for how other teams can invest more in their team. I have no idea how you think Cinci can possibly compare with NYC. It is not about filling up the stadium. It's about marketing, and it's awfully easy to market to the "New Yawk" crowd than it is a hundred miles in Minny, or around CInci, or so on.

There are 8 million people in NYC. 8 MILLION! There are only 3 more million people in all of Ohio, and most are not within reasonable driving distance to go to games, or have as much marketing about the game (ie. being closer to Cleveland).

NYC - [SIZE=-1]8,168,388[/SIZE]
CIN - 312,561

And if you can apply the surrounding area to Cinci's credit, then why not New York's as well?

Ohio - 11 million
NY - 19 million

Is it really that hard to understand a difference between the two towns?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Your analysis assumes that every person living there is a Yankee fan, for one thing.... LEts not forget, NYC has 2 teams. Boston and Philly are also very close... and steal fans from NYC.

What's close to Minny? What's close to Cincy (especially to the south)

How does St. Louis seem to do so well when they are at a population disadvantage to NYC? St. Louis Population:, 348,189.

AS I just said, yes, it is Marketing. St. Louis has done it. Cincy has not. Plain and simple.