2014-15 Ohio State Men's Basketball (Official Thread)

[LitlBuck]

Name me a team (outside of Kentucky, UVA, Duke and Kansas) about which the same could not be said.

You forgot Gonzaga

 

[MaxBuck]

You forgot Gonzaga

Actually I didn't. But you're right, Gonzaga probably qualifies also, but mostly because they play in a conference slightly more competitive overall than the one Columbus State plays in.

 

[LitlBuck]

To be honest, OSU has not had many resume wins this season. They do need to win almost all of the rest of their regular season games to lock up a tourney bid.

IMO They would have to fall flat on their face the rest of the season in order for them not to make the tournament. They would have to lose at least 3 regular-season games and lose in the first round of the Big Ten tournament. If they do not do those things and do not make the NCAA there should be an investigation..

 

[DZ83CK]

We're 14 in kenpom. We're 14 in Sagarin. We're 12 in BPI. We're 18-6, and 7-4 in a strong league. Our case right now is a hell of a lot stronger than you apparently would like to think.

Of course we need to stay on track. Any team wanting to get to the Dance can say the same thing. But your view that we're little more than a bubble team doesn't really have much to back it up.

But again, seeding goes back to who you beat, not where you rate in RPI or whatever ranking is out there. If the Bucks end up with just the 3 wins they have now against tourney teams over the course of the season, then yes they will be on the bubble. You know OSU had only 2 wins (with a lot of losses) against tournament teams in 2008, that is why they got left out as much as anything. I know we're not used to seeing teams with good records from the B1G being left out, but the B1G isn't historically strong this year like it has been. Teams can get left out with good records if they don't have enough quality wins, that is reality I'm sorry you want to believe teams get in based on good record, and February 11 rankings from Kenpom, Sagarin and BPI.

 

[Jake]

The one good thing about Loving's absence has been the emergence of other players in his absence, Bates-Diop for example. Marc's not injured, and Thad has indicated he will rejoin the team sooner rather than later, so that's another positive. Still looking forward to seeing how far this team can go in March.

 

[MaxBuck]

But again, seeding goes back to who you beat, not where you rate in RPI or whatever ranking is out there. If the Bucks end up with just the 3 wins they have now against tourney teams over the course of the season, then yes they will be on the bubble. You know OSU had only 2 wins (with a lot of losses) against tournament teams in 2008, that is why they got left out as much as anything. I know we're not used to seeing teams with good records from the B1G being left out, but the B1G isn't historically strong this year like it has been. Teams can get left out with good records if they don't have enough quality wins, that is reality I'm sorry you want to believe teams get in based on good record, and February 11 rankings from Kenpom, Sagarin and BPI.

We disagree on so many things.

1. You claim whether you get in and where you're seeded has only to do with whom you've beaten. Yet past tournaments prove that is not the case. One's BPI, Sagarin, RPI and Kenpom rankings matter a great deal. I don't claim that a team's win roster isn't extremely important, as obviously it is, but it's not the be-all, end-all.
2. If we lose at MSU and at home to the Badgers but win the remaining 4, our regular season record will be 23-8, we'll finish second in the B1G, and we'll still have only two wins against clear tournament teams. If you think that puts us on the bubble you're crazy. Our wins against Maryland, Illinois, Purdue and Minnesota are pretty good wins compared to the field.
3. The B1G isn't as strong this season as it's been the past several, but it's still one of the top three in the nation. The second-place team in the B1G is just not on the bubble.

You can continue to be as pessimistic as you like, but it's a Chicken Little approach.

 

[OHSportsFan]

Ok. Back off the edge a little bit...

The next 6 games are huge for the Buckeyes. There should be some winnable games:

An extended break until they play again Thursday-
@NW
IU
Maryland
@Purdue
@Rutgers
Penn State

If they want to get things back on track it starts on Thursday. That could be a 5-1 stretch if they can split one at home between IU/Maryland. I would love to see it.

Then again, I'm a big proponent of "past results indicate future outcomes" and nothing shows this team can compete consistently. They could struggle to go 3-3.

Something has to click with these extra days off.

Well look at that. Didn't exactly call the games correctly, but there is the 5-1 stretch I called. Team took care of the games they should have and needed to take care of. Again, it wasn't difficult, but this team was at a crossroads before this set of games. Maybe like when Meyer recognized a brotherhood/bond forming in East Lansing a couple years ago for the football squad, the extra rest and close game at Northwestern- in which Russell owned the night- may have been a switch for this team.

I won't call them taking it as far as the football team went. But I like where they're at and how they are playing.

Now it's on to the "We Don't Give a Damn for the WHOLE state of michigan" mini-series. Part 1 on Saturday against a beatable Sparty team, but I just know they will play their best game of the year against the Buckeyes. They always do.

Part 2- nothing else needs to be said except Beat Michigan.

 

[DZ83CK]

We disagree on so many things.

1. You claim whether you get in and where you're seeded has only to do with whom you've beaten. Yet past tournaments prove that is not the case. One's BPI, Sagarin, RPI and Kenpom rankings matter a great deal. I don't claim that a team's win roster isn't extremely important, as obviously it is, but it's not the be-all, end-all.
2. If we lose at MSU and at home to the Badgers but win the remaining 4, our regular season record will be 23-8, we'll finish second in the B1G, and we'll still have only two wins against clear tournament teams. If you think that puts us on the bubble you're crazy. Our wins against Maryland, Illinois, Purdue and Minnesota are pretty good wins compared to the field.
3. The B1G isn't as strong this season as it's been the past several, but it's still one of the top three in the nation. The second-place team in the B1G is just not on the bubble.

You can continue to be as pessimistic as you like, but it's a Chicken Little approach.

Virginia Tech in 2010 was 23-8 (10-6 in the ACC), missed the tourney due to doing nothing in nonconference play (just like OSU this year). Two teams the Hokies finished ahead of in the league standings made it. Syracuse was 22-10 in 2007 and didn't get in. Missouri State had an RPI of 21 in 2006 and got left out. SMU last year was ranked late in the season, went 23-9 and 12-6 in conference play with 2 wins over UConn, and didn't get in due to doing nothing in nonconference play. Washington was 21-10 and 14-4 in the Pac-12, won the conference regular season in 2012 and did not get in. Utah State was 24-3 and actually ranked but still not selected in 2004. The only thing these teams all have in common is a low number of wins against teams that made the tournament.

 

[LitlBuck]

Well, it appears he has been stuck behind Loving and Tate. I wish Matta would find some more minutes for him, but we've seen before where some talented freshmen just have not been able to get off the bench due to more experienced players being ahead of them on the pecking order. William Buford for instance didn't play regularly as a freshman (even though he went on to average double-digits in points that season) until after Lighty got injured, clearly WB was talented enough to contribute but was not getting off the bench due to the more experienced players being ahead of him. Bates-Diop to me is somewhat similar, clearly he has talent and can contribute but Matta is content to play his more experienced players. I don't like it, but what can you do as a fan. Personally I would not play Sam Thompson 40 minutes or anything close to that, the guy has gone 3-21 from 3 over the course of 11 B1G games this season, and it's not like opposing teams are making it real hard for him to get open shots. Thompson is also limited in production aside from not being a shooter, doesn't contribute a lot in any other statistical category other than a modest points per 40 total.

My thinking is your team's upside is higher living with mistakes that KBD makes and anticipating improvement, as opposed to going back to playing Thompson 40 minutes when you know what you'll get and it's not all that great. I would like to see KBD getting at least 15-20 minutes per game (20 without Loving, 15 with Loving). I feel that the more the seniors play, the lower the upside of this team, and the more the freshmen play, the higher the upside. It can still be a team that makes a run in the tournament, but not without a heavy dose of freshman.

While I agree in principle with what you are saying, I would substitute Scott for Thompson in your scenario. I do not think that Scott is bringing very much to the table, including free-throw shooting, this season. I also do not think I would give that many minutes to KDB until he shows his wares against a quality opponent and that does not include Rutgers or PSU.

it certainly was a well-timed post because Thompson had his best game of the season against the guys from Happy Valley

 

[DZ83CK]

While I agree in principle with what you are saying, I would substitute Scott for Thompson in your scenario. I do not think that Scott is bringing very much to the table, including free-throw shooting, this season. I also do not think I would give that many minutes to KDB until he shows his wares against a quality opponent and that does not include Rutgers or PSU.

it certainly was a well-timed post because Thompson had his best game of the season against the guys from Happy Valley

Yes, interesting timing for Thompson's career high.

While Sam had a strong performance yesterday, we have all seen him for four years and we know that him resembling being that productive is very unusual. I personally value Scott higher than Thompson, I like how Scott contributes in areas of the game such as assists, steals, rebounds even when he doesn't score. Thompson, it's kind of the opposite, if he's not scoring he's not putting much up on the statsheet typically. Doesn't board. Doesn't assist much. Doesn't handle the ball. Gets steals sometimes but the steals he gets aren't as difficult to get as the ones Scott often makes. I just don't see the things Thompson that does on a regular basis as things that are so difficult for a replacement to provide that you can't take him out of the game 10-15 minutes. Scott may be more replaceable in the lineup at times this year since Russell is taking over, but he still has skills that you only have one guy on the team other than Scott that can fit that role. Thompson, you could pick any one of 3 or 4 other guys to put in that spot and typically get basically the same production over the span of 10-15 minutes a game.

 

[Bulls-Eye]

We disagree on so many things.

1. You claim whether you get in and where you're seeded has only to do with whom you've beaten. Yet past tournaments prove that is not the case. One's BPI, Sagarin, RPI and Kenpom rankings matter a great deal. I don't claim that a team's win roster isn't extremely important, as obviously it is, but it's not the be-all, end-all.
2. If we lose at MSU and at home to the Badgers but win the remaining 4, our regular season record will be 23-8, we'll finish second in the B1G, and we'll still have only two wins against clear tournament teams. If you think that puts us on the bubble you're crazy. Our wins against Maryland, Illinois, Purdue and Minnesota are pretty good wins compared to the field.
3. The B1G isn't as strong this season as it's been the past several, but it's still one of the top three in the nation. The second-place team in the B1G is just not on the bubble.

I'll chime in here on the subject as well. I tend to agree more with DZ83CK, as far as the philosophy on how seeding takes place. It's all about "who have you played, and who have you beaten," which you will probably hear 100 times from the mouth of Jay Bilas during Selection Show weekend. I will agree that if OSU loses at Sparty and at home against Wisconsin, but wins out against the remainder of the regular season schedule, they will still make it into the Dance. They may even still get the 2nd or 3rd seed in the B1G tournament. However, their NCAA seed is going to be an 8 or 9, based on the fact they will have maybe 3 wins against tournament teams, and no marquee wins at all.

IF the Buckeyes drop a game to someone they should not lose to (@ Penn State or Michigan), then it becomes even trickier. There is only one marquee win available in the B1G this season, and that is Wisconsin. OSU's resume won't really look very good unless they are able to win out, or if they drop one more game but can at least beat Wisconsin in the season finale. The one saving grace for Ohio State is that many teams this year have the same problem. Outside of maybe the top ten teams, there is a huge pool of teams with similar, yet very unspectacular, resumes. There are only a few "elite" teams this season, so the chance for anyone to pile up marquee wins is rather difficult.

Of all things, I don't really care what OSU's seed is as long as they are not an 8/9. That is a tough 1st round game, and then obviously a very difficult 2nd round game. Even if they end up as a 7/10, I would not be scared at all of a #2 seed. Just avoid Duke/Kentucky/Virginia for as long as possible, and this OSU team has a chance to make a run with the ball in D'Angelo's hands.

 

[LitlBuck]

Yes, interesting timing for Thompson's career high.

While Sam had a strong performance yesterday, we have all seen him for four years and we know that him resembling being that productive is very unusual. I personally value Scott higher than Thompson, I like how Scott contributes in areas of the game such as assists, steals, rebounds even when he doesn't score. Thompson, it's kind of the opposite, if he's not scoring he's not putting much up on the statsheet typically. Doesn't board. Doesn't assist much. Doesn't handle the ball. Gets steals sometimes but the steals he gets aren't as difficult to get as the ones Scott often makes. I just don't see the things Thompson that does on a regular basis as things that are so difficult for a replacement to provide that you can't take him out of the game 10-15 minutes. Scott may be more replaceable in the lineup at times this year since Russell is taking over, but he still has skills that you only have one guy on the team other than Scott that can fit that role. Thompson, you could pick any one of 3 or 4 other guys to put in that spot and typically get basically the same production over the span of 10-15 minutes a game.

I have also seen Shannon for 4 years along with Thompson and if I can have one on the court at any given time I will take Sam. I do not understand how you can talk about Scott and assists when it is his job as PG to distribute the ball and I will also put Thompson up against Shannon when it comes to defense and rebounding. Thompson probably scores more points in most games with just his dunks off of inbounds plays than Shannon does the entire game. Also, as an added incentive, who do you want at the free-throw line at the end of the game or even during the game

I will take Russell at PG and 4 other guys including Thompson and you can have Shannon and four other guys(including Russell) but not Thompson. You tell me who you would rather have on the floor.

 

[DZ83CK]

I have also seen Shannon for 4 years along with Thompson and if I can have one on the court at any given time I will take Sam. I do not understand how you can talk about Scott and assists when it is his job as PG to distribute the ball and I will also put Thompson up against Shannon when it comes to defense and rebounding. Thompson probably scores more points in most games with just his dunks off of inbounds plays than Shannon does the entire game. Also, as an added incentive, who do you want at the free-throw line at the end of the game or even during the game

I will take Russell at PG and 4 other guys including Thompson and you can have Shannon and four other guys(including Russell) but not Thompson. You tell me who you would rather have on the floor.

I think Russell being available to play PG and being the star at that role makes Scott less valuable (and play less) than he otherwise would - just as if the team had Andrew Wiggins then Sam would not be as valuable or play as much as he is now. Thompson has been more consistent scoring than SS but then again as you say his role is more to score whereas Scott's role is more to distribute. Really my main point was that I don't like seeing Sam play ~40 minutes, at least when he's not scoring many points because I think the reserves can put the ball in the hole better, be similarly effective in other areas of the game, and I think less minutes helps Sam maybe not be short on his shot at the end of the game. It seemed like the Purdue game the whole team was short on their shots for the majority of the stretch run in the second half, partly because those guys played a lot of minutes. Even after the PSU record game for him, he is 54th in the B1G in points per 40 (while playing on a fairly up-tempo OSU team). Neither are what you would call clutch at the FT line. Neither is an all-Big Ten player. But I do believe Thompson is more readily replaceable than Scott generally speaking, this team you could say Scott is more replaceable since Russell is on it. We can agree to disagree about whether Scott or Thompson is better.

 

[Mike80]

While I am appreciative of the 4 years both Thompson and Scott have put into the program, neither one has come close to living up to their lofty recruiting ranks - nor are they really worth the debate we've seen about both over the years.

Craft was a clearly a much more consistent PG than Scott and a superior defender.

Thompson has been the best 3rd guard/SF on the team the past two years, which only illustrates how thin those positions have been since Buford/ET/Deibs/Lighty left....

 

[DZ83CK]

Of all things, I don't really care what OSU's seed is as long as they are not an 8/9. That is a tough 1st round game, and then obviously a very difficult 2nd round game. Even if they end up as a 7/10, I would not be scared at all of a #2 seed. Just avoid Duke/Kentucky/Virginia for as long as possible, and this OSU team has a chance to make a run with the ball in D'Angelo's hands.

Obviously you can't avoid tough teams forever. But I agree that I would much rather have them a #6 or #7, than a #8 generally speaking. It is somewhat regular that a #2 is bounced in the opening weekend, not regular for a #1 to get ousted that early. I wish OSU wasn't in the position that they basically have to beat Wisconsin to avoid being in an 8-9 game, but they might end up there.