Bible: Facts or Truths? (Split)

[lvbuckeye]

lv, you are not about to be persuaded that the Bible is better read as instructional and allegorical; you prefer to see it as prophetic and factual, and to look for "hidden signs." That will never be my view, because I think the Bible was intended by God to be directional as to how to live our lives, and to not be studied as one studies tea leaves, looking for "predictions" where none exist.

Have fun on this thread with all the other fine folks.

the Bible is very explicit. it is not a guidebook on how to live a good life. the first 39 books show how utterly incapable man is of saving himself, yet points to the coming Redeemer.
the last 27 books show the way to salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and points out the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.

i'm not saying that the Bible does not use allegory or parables. it obviously does. but i don't think that it is possible to spend time studying the Bible without coming to the realization that the entire Old Testament points to the coming Messiah, either through direct prophecy or by a picture or type. the entire New Testament refers to the Old Testament Prophecies and pictures. there are over 350 direct quotes of Old Testament verses in Revelation alone. people like to say that the Old Testament is Christ concealed, and the New Testament is Christ revealed. there are over 300 Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament, and there are over 500 prophecies regarding the second coming...

examples of direct prophecy regarding Christ's crucifixion:
Psalms 22:1 "My Father, My Father, why have you forsaken me... my bones are out of joint... my tongue is dry... they pierced my hands and feet... they gamble for my clothes..."
Isaiah 53:5 "He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities... by His stripes are we healed..."

examples of pictures: the Ark, the Ark of the Covenant.

Joshua leading the Children of Israel into the Promised land. Joshua is Yeshua in Hebrew. Jesus is Yeshua in Hebrew.

Jonah spending 3 days in the belly of the beast. when you look at the Jonah story as a foreshadowing of the coming Christ, then the verse in Psalms 74 makes sense when it says that God breaks the head of the Leviathan. Christ defeated hell and death on the cross.. Psalm 74 was written before Jonah was born, BTW.

when the Children of Israel were wandering in the desert, they were ordered to camp in 4 groups of 3 tribes surrounding the Tabernacle and Levi. the largest group was arranged to the east. if you were looking at the Israelite camp from the air in the east, it would form a cross. the four standards that the groups camped under were a Lion, a Man, an Ox, and an Eagle. in Ezekiel and Revelation two creatures are mentioned near the Throne of God having four faces- a Lion, a Man, an Ox, and an Eagle.

Isaiah prophecied the birth of Christ, and the verbiage he used was the same used by the Angels who appeared to the shepherds tending their flocks.

in his judgment of the nations, Isaiah wrote an admonition to Cyrus a hundred years before Cyrus was born. when Cyrus heard of the letter, he was so astonished that he the Israelite slaves go to rebuild the Temple.

Daniel's 70 week prophecy predicted Christ's triumphal entry to the day.

i could go on.

 

[Brewtus]

LV, I'm still interested in learning more about your "Italian Salad Dressing Theory" to explain the observed fossil record. You previously claimed that "the more dense matter settles to the bottom, and the less dense matter settles in layers above it. the fossil record is evidence of a massive global flood."

Well this is not the case at all and the observed fossil and geological record provide a great deal of contrary evidence. How does a Biblical global flood explain the observed evidence and how was the fossil record sorted in an order convenient for evolution? Your theory fails to explain:

• the extremely good sorting observed. Why didn't at least one dinosaur make it to the high ground with the elephants?
  [*]why some groups of organisms, such as mollusks, are found in many geologic strata.
  [*]why organisms (such as brachiopods) which are very similar (all nearly the same size, shape, and weight) are still perfectly sorted.
  [*]why extinct animals which lived in the same niches as present animals didn't survive as well. Why did no pterodons make it to high ground?
  [*]how coral reefs hundreds of feet thick and miles long were preserved intact with other fossils below them.
  [*]why small organisms dominate the lower strata, whereas fluid mechanics says they would sink slower and thus end up in upper strata.
  [*]why artifacts such as footprints and burrows are also sorted.
  [*]why no human artifacts are found except in the very uppermost strata. If, at the time of the Flood, the earth was overpopulated by people with technology for shipbuilding, why were none of their tools or buildings mixed with trilobite or dinosaur fossils?
  [*]why different parts of the same organisms are sorted together. Pollen and spores are found in association with the trunks, leaves, branches, and roots produced by the same plants.
  [*]why ecological information is consistent within but not between layers. Fossil pollen is one of the more important indicators of different levels of strata. Each plant has different and distinct pollen, and, by telling which plants produced the fossil pollen, it is easy to see what the climate was like in different strata. Was the pollen sorted by the flood water so that the climatic evidence is different for each layer?

Even if you only have explanations for a few of these I'd be interested to hear them.

 

[Gatorubet]

DO YOU NOT READ WHAT I POST? go back and read what Jesus said about Noah. if the story is a myth, then Jesus Christ is a liar, which would make the Bible NOT a book of 'truth' but a book of the most insidious lie ever invented.

Or its possible that he felt that talking about recumbent DNA might go over some goat herder heads....

 

[lvbuckeye]

LV, I'm still interested in learning more about your "Italian Salad Dressing Theory" to explain the observed fossil record. You previously claimed that "the more dense matter settles to the bottom, and the less dense matter settles in layers above it. the fossil record is evidence of a massive global flood."

Well this is not the case at all and the observed fossil and geological record provide a great deal of contrary evidence. How does a Biblical global flood explain the observed evidence and how was the fossil record sorted in an order convenient for evolution? Your theory fails to explain:

• the extremely good sorting observed. Why didn't at least one dinosaur make it to the high ground with the elephants?
  [*]why some groups of organisms, such as mollusks, are found in many geologic strata.
  [*]why organisms (such as brachiopods) which are very similar (all nearly the same size, shape, and weight) are still perfectly sorted.
  [*]why extinct animals which lived in the same niches as present animals didn't survive as well. Why did no pterodons make it to high ground?
  [*]how coral reefs hundreds of feet thick and miles long were preserved intact with other fossils below them.
  [*]why small organisms dominate the lower strata, whereas fluid mechanics says they would sink slower and thus end up in upper strata.
  [*]why artifacts such as footprints and burrows are also sorted.
  [*]why no human artifacts are found except in the very uppermost strata. If, at the time of the Flood, the earth was overpopulated by people with technology for shipbuilding, why were none of their tools or buildings mixed with trilobite or dinosaur fossils?
  [*]why different parts of the same organisms are sorted together. Pollen and spores are found in association with the trunks, leaves, branches, and roots produced by the same plants.
  [*]why ecological information is consistent within but not between layers. Fossil pollen is one of the more important indicators of different levels of strata. Each plant has different and distinct pollen, and, by telling which plants produced the fossil pollen, it is easy to see what the climate was like in different strata. Was the pollen sorted by the flood water so that the climatic evidence is different for each layer?

Even if you only have explanations for a few of these I'd be interested to hear them.

In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - The Hydroplate Theory: An Overview

Or its possible that he felt that talking about recumbent DNA might go over some goat herder heads....

nope. there was something going on during Noah's time that was the real reason that God destroyed mankind. Jesus was referring to that.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

LV - I shall respond later this evening.

 

[Brewtus]

In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - The Hydroplate Theory: An Overview

That's the best you can do, is just provide a link for me?

Well I looked through your Creationist website anyway (it looked familiar and I'm fairly certain that I've read through that site before) and focused on the section entitled Liquefaction: The Origin of Strata and Layered Fossils. To my disappointment (but not surprise) the author Walk Brown (an infamous Creationist by the way) wrote in extremely general terms and I found nothing to answer my original questions. You'd think that he would have at least known the basics of paleontology and directed his "theory" to address what's actually observed in the fossil record. The following are just some of the very basics of fossil formation that were not addressed anywhere (at least I didn't find answers to them):

• Fossils are not sorted according to hydrodynamic principles. Ammonites, which are buoyant organisms similar to the chambered nautilus, are found only in deep strata. Turtles, which are rather dense, are found in middle and upper strata. Brachiopods are very similar to clams in size and shape, but brachiopods are found mostly in lower strata than are clams. Most fossil-bearing strata contain fossils of various sizes and shapes. Some species are found in wide ranges, while others are found only in thin layers within those ranges. Liquefaction sorting can explain none of this.
• The sediments in which fossils are found are also not sorted via Liquefaction. Coarse sediments are often found above fine sediments. Nor are the sediments sorted with the fossils. Large fossils are commonly found in fine sediments.

Once again, how does a Biblical global flood, Liquefaction or other Creationist theory explain the observed evidence?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Upon giving a great deal of contemplation regarding the post I intend to make, I have decided to start a new thread, which I hope shall only address the Ark, and the logistics of the animals and supplies on it. I do this for a couple reasons..
1 - This thread, in no small part owing to my participation, has become a mishmash of ideas and discussions.
2 - Several people have commented about the appearance of "ganging up" on LV, and I hope a new thread discussing just the Ark and it's supplies will lessen that appearance.

I will post a link here once I complete my post. In it, I will address LVs last response to me which serves as the catalyst for the points I'd like to discuss there.

Hope that is satisfactory for everyone.

 

[MaxBuck]

DO YOU NOT READ WHAT I POST? go back and read what Jesus said about Noah. if the story is a myth, then Jesus Christ is a liar, which would make the Bible NOT a book of 'truth' but a book of the most insidious lie ever invented.

Unfortunately I do read what you post, including this inflammatory nonsense.

 

[billmac91]

I've posted before, but I really do enjoy reading both sides....neither of you BKD and LV will ever concede but much food for thought is given...I generally side w/ BKB for several reasons but its nice to get another perspective....I often sit in church and don't understand what I'm hearing. For example, we learned about Elisha and his annoiting by God several weeks ago....Elishsa was mocked by numerous people and in one instance had bears come out and maul the men who were mocking him.....I guess I don't understand what is Christian about that unless I misunderstood the message....to me the message was, you can do powerful things if annoited by God, yet the story seemed to contradict many things a Christian would be

Even if mocked by people, wouldn't you find another avenue rather than mauling people with bears...I dunno, just another question

 

[AKAK]

I'm just wondering why I was watching the history channel last night and they were showing me pictures of the Andromeda Galaxy... that's all.

 

[Bleed S & G]

The big bang & creationism, i mentioned this concept before, here is the article

Gerald Schroeder - Articles - The Age of the Universe

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step. Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets exponentially longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)
The calculations come out to be as follows:

• The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.
• The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.
• The third day also lasted half of the previous day, 2 billion years.
• The fourth day - one billion years.
• The fifth day - one-half billion years.
• The sixth day - one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.

 

[Bleed S & G]

I've posted before, but I really do enjoy reading both sides....neither of you BKD and LV will ever concede but much food for thought is given...I generally side w/ BKB for several reasons but its nice to get another perspective....I often sit in church and don't understand what I'm hearing. For example, we learned about Elisha and his annoiting by God several weeks ago....Elishsa was mocked by numerous people and in one instance had bears come out and maul the men who were mocking him.....I guess I don't understand what is Christian about that unless I misunderstood the message....to me the message was, you can do powerful things if annoited by God, yet the story seemed to contradict many things a Christian would be

Even if mocked by people, wouldn't you find another avenue rather than mauling people with bears...I dunno, just another question

if you sit down and read the OT, its amazing some of the things 'god' did, such as forcing people to do certain things so that they could be cut down.. the most popular of such cases is Egypt & Moses.. the book says that god made the pharaoh not want to let the people go, over several plagues, he eventually sends the angel of death to kill innocent first borns.

very diffrent God than the one Jesus spoke of.. or so it appears to me. bgrad can probably shed some more light on this, my personal feeling is karma is real in the judeo-christian tradition as well, and its expressed in a much simplier way. most stories in the bible, there is so much behind the text.. which is why me and LV disagree, the bible to me is more or less a big parable at times.

 

[Brewtus]

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.

Well, not exactly. The Bible is erroneous in many aspects. Here is the order listed in the Bible: (1) a beginning; (2) light; (3) sun and stars; (4) primitive earth, moon, and atmosphere; (5) dry land; (6) sea creatures; (7) some land plants; (8) land creatures and more plants and sea creatures; (9) flying creatures (insects) and more plants and land and sea creatures; (10) mammals, and more land and sea animals, insects, and plants; (11) the first birds, (12) fruiting plants and more land, sea, and flying creatures; (13) man and more of the various animals and plants.

But the order listed in Genesis is not supported by the physical evidence. First of all I'm not sure how you can have light without the sun and stars. And there are other discrepancies. The sun is slightly older than the Earth, and the Moon is as old as the Earth, or a bit younger (from current theories of planetary formation; the time differences are ~100 million years out of 4.6 billion years). The stars have no single age, but have been forming ever since the galaxies came into existence; some are older than the Earth, some younger. The order of appearance of various animals is terribly mixed up. Though blue-green algae are much older than any multicelled animal, the first land plants appear ~400 m.y. ago, as opposed to the first sea animals ~600 m.y. ago. Flowering plants (the most common land plants) appeared about ~120-150 m.y. ago, well after the first land animals appeared, approx 400 m.y. ago. Also, flying animals appear after closely related land animals appear; flying insects after early wingless ones, pterodactyls after proto-dinosaurs, birds after certain small carnivorous dinosaurs, and bats after early placental mammals. Some sea animals are descendants of land animals; consider (partially aquatic) otters, seals and sea lions and walruses, penguins, alligators and crocodiles, and sea turtles and (completely aquatic) whales and dolphins, sea snakes, ichthyosaurs, plesiosaurs, and mosasaurs.

So while the Bible has the very general order of events somewhat correct, the details are all wrong. The Bible, in a literal sense, is wrong and does not support what we observe to be the actual order of events.

 

[Gatorubet]

I've posted before, but I really do enjoy reading both sides....neither of you BKD and LV will ever concede but much food for thought is given...I generally side w/ BKB for several reasons but its nice to get another perspective....I often sit in church and don't understand what I'm hearing. For example, we learned about Elisha and his annoiting by God several weeks ago....Elishsa was mocked by numerous people and in one instance had bears come out and maul the men who were mocking him.....I guess I don't understand what is Christian about that unless I misunderstood the message....to me the message was, you can do powerful things if annoited by God, yet the story seemed to contradict many things a Christian would be

Even if mocked by people, wouldn't you find another avenue rather than mauling people with bears...I dunno, just another question

I haven't looked it up lately, but I remember it as children mocking his baldness, so God sent bears to maul them.....well, I guess I should google first...

ahem:
2 Kings 2:23-24 (American Standard Version)

American Standard Version (ASV) Copyright ? 1901 Public Domain




23 And he went up from thence unto Beth-el; and as he was going up by the way, there came forth young lads out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou baldhead; go up, thou baldhead. 24 And he looked behind him and saw them, and cursed them in the name of Jehovah. And there came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two lads of them.


And the lads sayeth, "But Yogi....I did not stealeth thous pic-i-nic basket"

 

[Bleed S & G]

Well, not exactly. The Bible is erroneous in many aspects. Here is the order listed in the Bible: (1) a beginning; (2) light; (3) sun and stars; (4) primitive earth, moon, and atmosphere; (5) dry land; (6) sea creatures; (7) some land plants; (8) land creatures and more plants and sea creatures; (9) flying creatures (insects) and more plants and land and sea creatures; (10) mammals, and more land and sea animals, insects, and plants; (11) the first birds, (12) fruiting plants and more land, sea, and flying creatures; (13) man and more of the various animals and plants.

But the order listed in Genesis is not supported by the physical evidence. First of all I'm not sure how you can have light without the sun and stars. And there are other discrepancies. The sun is slightly older than the Earth, and the Moon is as old as the Earth, or a bit younger (from current theories of planetary formation; the time differences are ~100 million years out of 4.6 billion years). The stars have no single age, but have been forming ever since the galaxies came into existence; some are older than the Earth, some younger. The order of appearance of various animals is terribly mixed up. Though blue-green algae are much older than any multicelled animal, the first land plants appear ~400 m.y. ago, as opposed to the first sea animals ~600 m.y. ago. Flowering plants (the most common land plants) appeared about ~120-150 m.y. ago, well after the first land animals appeared, approx 400 m.y. ago. Also, flying animals appear after closely related land animals appear; flying insects after early wingless ones, pterodactyls after proto-dinosaurs, birds after certain small carnivorous dinosaurs, and bats after early placental mammals. Some sea animals are descendants of land animals; consider (partially aquatic) otters, seals and sea lions and walruses, penguins, alligators and crocodiles, and sea turtles and (completely aquatic) whales and dolphins, sea snakes, ichthyosaurs, plesiosaurs, and mosasaurs.

So while the Bible has the very general order of events somewhat correct, the details are all wrong. The Bible, in a literal sense, is wrong and does not support what we observe to be the actual order of events.

Once again, it's a little deeper than "how can their be no light w/o stars" ..

The universe begins 15.75 billion earth years ago and during the first "day" light breaks free, as electrons bind to atomic nuclei, and galaxies begin to form. This is described in Gen. 1:1-5 as the creation followed by light separating from the darkness.


Cosmic day two starts 7.75 billion earth years ago and lasts four billion earth years. During this period the stars are born. This corresponds to Gen. 1:6-8, the formation of the heavenly firmament.

Cosmic day three starts 3.75 billion earth years ago. During two billion earth years, the earth cools, water appears, and the first life forms appear. In Gen. 1:9-13, vegetation first appears during the third day.

Cosmic day four starts 1.75 billion earth years ago and lasts a billion earth years. The earth's atmosphere becomes transparent and photosynthesis produces an oxygen-rich atmosphere. Schroeder says that this corresponds to Gen. 1: 14-19 when "the Sun, Moon, and stars become visible in the heavens" (67).

Cosmic day five starts 750 million earth years ago and lasts 500 million earth years. During this period, the first multicellular animals appear and the oceans swarm with life. Gen. 1:20-23 says the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures and "birds fly above the earth" (94).
Cosmic day six starts 250 million years ago and ends at the time of Adam. During this period we have a massive extinction in which 90 percent of life is destroyed and then repopulated with humanoids and humans. This, Schroeder says, corresponds to what is described in Gen. 1:24-31.

although, after outlining this, the article then tears apart the theory leaving it with this:

It takes quite a stretching of the imagination as well as stretching of the time scale to make the biblical story of creation match that of modern cosmology. In showing us how to make six days last 15 billion years, Gerald Schroeder has demonstrated plenitude of imagination.

Fitting the Bible to the Data