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Is the big 12 overrated?

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Mack brown is not 0-5 against OU. He has lost 5 straight, but he played more than 5 games against them. Colorado used to be better, and Nebraska obviously was once great.

Here's how I see it: OU is overrated in terms of title berths. However, they are an incredible dynasty over the last 5+ years. If pollsters had put OU in the Rose & USC in the title game in the 2003 season, and Auburn had not been undefeated last year, we would not look down on OU as much.

Something you have to keep in mind is this is easily one of the weakest years for the usual powers. OU, Michigan, OSU, Tennessee, Texas all have major roadblocks (schedules, rivals, replacements, etc)... FSU, UF, Miami have fallen off the map (UF should rebound some)... And many of the former powerful programs like Washington, Wash St, UCLA, Penn State, Colorado, Nebraska, Alabama, etc. have lost that winning feeling.

Here's my breakdown:
OU - slightly overrated (very overrated in BCS bowls)
Tex - wash (they may be #2, but most of the nation still isn't sure they will beat OU)
TxTech - slightly underrated
aTM - slightly overrated
Nebraska - underrated; they won't stay at the bottom forever, they've done better at recruiting lately
 
Upvote 0
jwinslow said:
Mack brown is not 0-5 against OU. He has lost 5 straight, but he played more than 5 games against them.
Click to expand...
Texas reminds me of OSU in the mid to late 90's, with one exception being that OU is a more formidable roadblock for Brown than scUM was to Cooper. I really think its just a matter of time before they break through, and once they do, they will be a legitimate national title contender every year after. I'm just hoping that breakthrough season doesn't happen until '07.
 
Upvote 0
"Even Coop got lucky and won the Rose in 96 (not to take anything away from the team that year, but we all know what Coop was like). Texas did the same last year. Course they were playing a horribly slow Michigan defense that most of us on this forum could move the ball against. I dont think the Big 12 has ALWAYS been overrated, but sure have the last 5 years or so. The Alamo shows you that, (no pun intended), Okie St was by no means a slouch last year, and it wasnt even a contest." Brutus Maximus


C'mon man!! If this forum got together and practiced a few times we would crush Michigan. 44-10
 
Upvote 0
Since 1998(BCS inception) the B12 vs other BCS confrences:

Code: 
<TABLE cellPadding=5 border=1><TBODY><TR bgColor=#e0e0ff><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff></TD><TD align=middle bgColor=#e0e0ff colSpan=5>Overall </TD><TD align=middle bgColor=#e0e0ff colSpan=5>Home </TD><TD align=middle bgColor=#e0e0ff colSpan=5>Away </TD><TD align=middle bgColor=#e0e0ff colSpan=5>Neutral </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#e0e0ff><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>Conference</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>Win%</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>gm</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>W</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>L</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>T</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>Win%</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>gm</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>W</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>L</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>T</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>Win%</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>gm</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>W</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>L</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>T</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>Win%</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>gm</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>W</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>L</TD><TD bgColor=#e0e0ff>T</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>SunBelt</TD><TD align=right>0.947</TD><TD align=right>19</TD><TD align=right>18</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1.000</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.500</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD bgColor=#dddddd colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>BigWest</TD><TD align=right>0.929</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.917</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1.000</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD bgColor=#dddddd colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>WAC</TD><TD align=right>0.851</TD><TD align=right>47</TD><TD align=right>40</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.938</TD><TD align=right>32</TD><TD align=right>30</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.636</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>MAC</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.800</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.500</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>1.000</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>CUSA</TD><TD align=right>0.739</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.714</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>MWC</TD><TD align=right>0.690</TD><TD align=right>29</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.857</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.556</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.500</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>BigEast</TD><TD align=right>0.538</TD><TD align=right>13</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.333</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.600</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.600</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>PAC-10</TD><TD align=right>0.526</TD><TD align=right>38</TD><TD align=right>20</TD><TD align=right>18</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.600</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.417</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.545</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>BigXII</TD><TD align=right>0.500</TD><TD align=right>686</TD><TD align=right>343</TD><TD align=right>343</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.607</TD><TD align=right>328</TD><TD align=right>199</TD><TD align=right>129</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.393</TD><TD align=right>328</TD><TD align=right>129</TD><TD align=right>199</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.500</TD><TD align=right>30</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>SEC</TD><TD align=right>0.478</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=right>11</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.333</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>ACC</TD><TD align=right>0.467</TD><TD align=right>15</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>8</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.750</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.250</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.429</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>3</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR><TR><TD noWrap>BigTen</TD><TD align=right>0.452</TD><TD align=right>31</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.556</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.400</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD align=right>6</TD><TD align=right>0</TD><TD align=right>0.417</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>0</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thats a combined 52-55(.486) overall vs the SEC, B10, Pac 10 and ACC.

Broken down its as follows:
Home 20-12 (.625)
Away 13-17(.433)
Neutral site(ie Bowl Games) 19-26 (.422)


Its hard for anyone to give me an intelligent argument in favor of the B12 with that kind of data staring us all in the face.
 
Upvote 0
First, nice to see some objective posts here.

Next, how is the Big 12 overrated when most people in the country think we're overrated? Who exactly is hyping the Big 12 as the best conference? To reiterate what I posted on the game thread, most reasonable people around the country think we're the 3rd or 4th best conference this year. Calling the Big 12 overrated is like calling a $5 lapdance overrated.

The Big 10 and SEC are better from top to bottom this year. We're probably fighting it out with the ACC for 3rd best conference. The SEC is brutal this year. The Big 10 is loaded. ACC has some pretty good teams and a bunch of mediocre ones. Ditto for the Big 12.


How much of this animosity towards the Big 12 is because of the suckitude of the North Division? Actually, saying all the teams in the North suck isn't quite fair. They're all mediocre. Imagine a 6 team division full of Michigan States or Northwesterns, not Indianas.


Scarlet, who are the "ignorant idiots" that keep bringing up your loss to Northwestern? You seem to bring up that game far more than any Texas fan on here has. You also seem to bring up our game with Okie State quite a bit. I have no idea why. Texas won that game by 3 td's. And calling 2003 Texas A&M one of the best teams in the Big 12 is not accurate. They were 4-8 that year and gave up 40 ponts per game and were starting a walkon at middle linebacker. They sucked.

stoops might be in mack browns head
Click to expand...
That's the understatement of the year.


Other random thoughts:
Ohio State dominated Okie State, a pretty decent team. That we can all agree on. But I don't think it proves the relative strength (or lack thereof) of the Big 12. They finished 5th in a 6 team division last year. Their only win against a South division team was Baylor.

The article that osugrad linked was entertaining. A little over the top (looks like it was meant to be), but I can appreciate a post that contains so much research. Good job, BKB.
 
Upvote 0
EngineerHorn said:
Next, how is the Big 12 overrated when most people in the country think we're overrated? Who exactly is hyping the Big 12 as the best conference?
Click to expand...
Will Chris Stassen due? This shows how a conference performed pre season polls vs final polls. The media constantly is on the B12's jock and tthe B12 constantly fails to live up to the hype. The numbers just don't lie.

Code: 
This is a table of under-/over-ratedness of conferences, calculated by summing up all of the overrated/underrated numbers for conference members for a given year.
 


<CENTER>[b][color=red]Totals[/color][/b]

 
<TABLE cellPadding=5 border=1><TBODY><TR align=middle bgColor=#e0ffe0><TD noWrap align=left>Conference</TD><TD>Total</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#2004"][color=#800080]2004[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#2003"][color=#800080]2003[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#2002"][color=#800080]2002[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#2001"][color=#800080]2001[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#2000"][color=#800080]2000[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1999"][color=#800080]1999[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1998"][color=#800080]1998[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1997"][color=#800080]1997[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1996"][color=#800080]1996[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1995"][color=#800080]1995[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1994"][color=#800080]1994[/color][/url]</TD><TD>[url="http://preseason.stassen.com/over-under/conferences.html#1993"][color=#800080]1993[/color][/url]</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>WAC</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>+92</TD><TD>+18</TD><TD>+10</TD><TD>+11</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-2[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+25</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+34</TD><TD>[color=red]-4[/color] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>Conference USA [size=-2]<SUP>[1]</SUP>[/size]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>+53</TD><TD>+19</TD><TD>+1</TD><TD>[color=red]-3[/color] </TD><TD>+7</TD><TD>[color=red]-4[/color] </TD><TD>+12</TD><TD>+14</TD><TD>+7</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>Big Ten</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>+35</TD><TD>[color=red]-2[/color] </TD><TD>+20</TD><TD>+28</TD><TD>[color=red]-6[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-39[/color] </TD><TD>+10</TD><TD>[color=red]-1[/color] </TD><TD>+2½</TD><TD>+13</TD><TD>+5</TD><TD>[color=red]-10[/color] </TD><TD>+14½</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>Mountain West [size=-2]<SUP>[2]</SUP>[/size]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>+34</TD><TD>+16</TD><TD>+5</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+1</TD><TD>+12</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD><TD>[i]n/a[/i] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>MAC</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>+33</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+19</TD><TD>[color=red]-5[/color] </TD><TD>+3</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+14</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+2</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>PAC-10</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>+30½</TD><TD>+11</TD><TD>+12½</TD><TD>[color=red]-9[/color] </TD><TD>+13½</TD><TD>+41</TD><TD>[color=red]-34[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-3[/color] </TD><TD>+29</TD><TD>+8</TD><TD>[color=red]-12½[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-6[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-20[/color] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>ACC</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>[color=red]-29½[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-17[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-9[/color] </TD><TD>+9</TD><TD>[color=red]-15[/color] </TD><TD>+2</TD><TD>[color=red]-8[/color] </TD><TD>+½</TD><TD>[color=red]-4[/color] </TD><TD>+11</TD><TD>[color=red]-8[/color] </TD><TD>+9</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>SEC</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>[color=red]-51½[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-19[/color] </TD><TD>+2</TD><TD>[color=red]-20[/color] </TD><TD>+7½</TD><TD>[color=red]-36[/color] </TD><TD>+19</TD><TD>+5</TD><TD>+6</TD><TD>+2</TD><TD>[color=red]-15[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-5[/color] </TD><TD>+2</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>Independents</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>[color=red]-53[/color] </TD><TD>+2</TD><TD>[color=red]-8[/color] </TD><TD>+9</TD><TD>[color=red]-11[/color] </TD><TD>+11</TD><TD>[color=red]-8[/color] </TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-17[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-12[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-4[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-22[/color] </TD><TD>+7</TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>Big East</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>[color=red]-61[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-9[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-37[/color] </TD><TD>+4</TD><TD>+8</TD><TD>+8</TD><TD>+6</TD><TD>[color=red]-17[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-19½[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-11[/color] </TD><TD>+8</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-1½[/color] </TD></TR><TR align=middle><TD noWrap align=left>Big XII [size=-2]<SUP>[3]</SUP>[/size]</TD><TD bgColor=#f0f0ff>[color=red]-82½[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-19[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-15½[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-24[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-8[/color] </TD><TD>+7</TD><TD>[color=red]-11[/color] </TD><TD>+1½</TD><TD>[color=red]-4[/color] </TD><TD>[color=red]-36[/color] </TD><TD>+24½</TD><TD>[color=blue]0[/color] </TD><TD>+2</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>

Here's how you read this table, scroll all the way to the bottom to find which conference is the most consistently overrated since 1993 and find the B12. Take a look near the top as you are scrolling and see who is the most consistently UNDERRATED major conference.
 
Upvote 0
Jaxbuck said:
Thats a combined 52-55(.486) overall vs the SEC, B10, Pac 10 and ACC.

Broken down its as follows:
Home 20-12 (.625)
Away 13-17(.433)
Neutral site(ie Bowl Games) 19-26 (.422)


Its hard for anyone to give me an intelligent argument in favor of the B12 with that kind of data staring us all in the face.
Click to expand...
So, they are just about .500 against the other major conferences. About what should be expected in matchups between other powers. I don't see those stats as arguing the Big XII is overrated, but rather that they match up pretty evenly with other power conference teams. Let's say they are just a notch below middle of the pack. The neutral site numbers do not bode well, obviously.

EDIT: I will say this much, the bottom of the Big XII is probably the worst of any of the five majors. Baylor, Kansas, Iowa State, and Missouri are probably the lesser of any grouping of four you could make from the others, IMHO. Not that they are far and away the worst, but probably I'd give them the nod. SEC is actually close.

Big Ten: Indiana, Northwestern, Michigan State, Illinois?/Penn State?
ACC: Duke, NC State, Wake Forest, Clemson/North Carolina
SEC: Vanderbilt, Kentucky, South Carolina, Ole Miss/Miss State
Pac 10: Washington?, Oregon State?, Stanford?, Arizona?

I've always had some respect for the Pac-10 because all ten of those schools have some accomplishments on the football field in various seasons. You can envision any of the schools from the Pac-10 going, say, 9-3 in a given year.
 
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Upvote 0
The Big 12 has been overrated for a while now, and it's been a matter of timing between the rise and fall of the North and South divisions. Back in the 90's, when Nebraska was king, people were asking the same question, and the answer was that for the Big 12 to be strong, the South division had to get stronger, and that was primarily Oklahoma and Texas. Nebraska's only roadblock at the time was Colorado, and to a lesser degree Kansas State. Oklahoma and Texas were mired in mediocrity. Fast forward to the 00's, and Oklahoma is king, Texas is strong again, but Nebraska has fallen into mediocrity. Now the question is who will challenge from the North division? It's been a complete reversal from 8-10 years ago.

For the Big 12 to get back to being an elite, power conference again, both divisions are going to have to be strong at the same time. Callahan might get Nebraska back, and some combination of Colorado/Kansas State/Missouri will have to rise up to challenge the Oklahoma/Texas hegemony.
 
Upvote 0
HabaneroBuck said:
So, they are just about .500 against the other major conferences. About what should be expected in matchups between other powers. I don't see those stats as arguing the Big XII is overrated, but rather that they match up pretty evenly with other power conference teams. Let's say they are just a notch below middle of the pack. The neutral site numbers do not bode well, obviously.
Click to expand...
The only time its usually a match up of even powers is the neutral site games. The regular season stuff usually involves the weaker teams in a conference going to take a pounding on the road. If you weight the three splits with that in mind the B12's weakness is glaring. The home and away numbers are about what you would expect from any big conference, pound weak teams at home and your weak teams get drilled on the road. BTW, the B10's neutral site record in that span is 24-22.

Also there is no way to suguar coat the second table I put up. For the past 11 years the B12 has outdone every other conference in failing to live up to the preseason rankings they have been given. They have outdone everyone else by a significant margin in a huge sample size. How else can that possibly be interpreted?
 
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