Oversigning (capacity 25, everyone welcome! maybe)

[jwinslow]

For those uninterested in that wall of text, this was the lead-in to the snippet Gator chose to quote in his last post. The second paragraph is the key one

The Big Ten has no issue with oversigning because it banned the practice in 1956. The conference actually loosened its rule in 2002 to allow schools to oversign by three players, but even that rule is drastically different from the NCAA rule now in effect. According to Big Ten associate commissioner Chad Hawley, schools are allowed three over the 85-man limit, not the annual 25-man limit. If, for example, Michigan ends a season with 20 open scholarship spots, then Michigan may sign 23 players. No more.

If a Big Ten program chooses to oversign, Hawley said, it then must document exactly how it came under the 85-scholarship limit. That way, coaches are less likely to cut a player who has done nothing wrong other than fail to live up to his recruiting hype. "If you've oversigned, you're going to have to report back to the conference," Hawley said. "Come the fall, you're going to have to explain how you came into compliance."

 

[MaxBuck]

I'm so glad this thread continues to thrive so that Buckeye fans can continue to smugly pontificate and piss off the valued SEC fans who visit us, those SEC fans can defensively pontificate and piss off their valued hosts, and allow neither side to be remotely persuaded by any of the opposing side's arguments.

 

[MaliBuckeye]

and allow neither side to be remotely persuaded by any of the opposing side's arguments.

Or, as we call it, "The Internet".

 

[jwinslow]

I'm so glad this thread continues to thrive so that Buckeye fans can continue to smugly pontificate and piss off the valued SEC fans who visit us, those SEC fans can defensively pontificate and piss off their valued hosts, and allow neither side to be remotely persuaded by any of the opposing side's arguments.

To the uniform thread?

 

[Onebuckfan]

besides Gator has 10000 posts just on this thread..he'd feel slighted without it ..

 

[Gatorubet]

For those uninterested in that wall of text, this was the lead-in to the snippet Gator chose to quote in his last post.

Wall of Text

The second paragraph is the key one

I did not quote it out of context. If it is "key", it reiterates what I said. You allow oversigning in your own rules. So oversigning - in an of itself, being a more than 85 thing - may not be the evil (absent the withholding of info - or misleading - or medical chicanery we all agree is bad) that some make it out to be.

Which was my small point. Sorry I did not use your own rule to make that point previously, but I was composing a 569 page opus on the fact that Buckeye leaves are Green.

 

[Gatorubet]

I'm so glad this thread continues to thrive so that Buckeye fans can continue to smugly pontificate and [censored] off the valued SEC fans who visit us, those SEC fans can defensively pontificate and [censored] off their valued hosts, and allow neither side to be remotely persuaded by any of the opposing side's arguments.

The rest of you poor s.o.bs having to read our continued exchanges are like....like....collateral damage.

 

[jwinslow]

Which was my small point.

Your point was to try to catch us with our hands in the cookie jar to prove that cookies aren't always evil.

That might be a meaningful trap unless you look at their cookie eating history.

It is well established in this thread that big ten teams are allowed to mildly oversign, just like it's been shown that they consistently bring in conservative scholarship totals, like Georgia does.

Sorry I did not use your own rule to make that point previously

But you already responded to that rule, which is why this a-ha moment is so strange

So first off, the question was (apparently) whether the Big-10's self imposed limit on signing kids put them at a disadvantage compared to schools who did not have the limit on signings. The question was not whether the SEC only had an advantage. What everybody here loves to get amnesia about is the fact that every conference than the Big-10 signs more players than them. So number one, if it is an advantage, then it is an advantage for the ACC and the Big-12 (or what is left of it) and the PAC-10 too.

To tell you the truth, until the article I had no idea about your self imposed "3 over" rule. If somebody here posted it, I sure missed that offering.
[/COLOR]
...cont'd

 

[jwinslow]

Clowney & Cyrus are still unsigned.

Top Teams in B10 & SEC

signed / verbals

18 / 23 - Alabama - nabbed Pagan but Cyrus K was thought to be a "lock"
30 / 30 - Arkansas - Quantity over quality. Lost TE to UM due to oversigning blowback.
24 / 24 - Auburn - #1 OT Cyrus K is a huge pickup. Kids sure are flocking to the impending doom.
25 / 25 - Georgia - Another year, another top recruiting class without oversigning.
22 / 22 - LSU - Continued dominance in the talent rich LA region, 3 five 9 four stars, almost all from LA.
23 / 24 - Ohio St - Walker to USC, Grant to OSU?, Story & Jennings stay home as expected. Carter ends up in jail, now charges dropped, added to class still?
21 / 21 - Mich St - mediocre class, Lawrence Thomas is incredible, but missing on Arnett and others kept them from cementing solid top-4 status in the b10 moving forward
19 / 19 - Nebraska - overcomes heavy favorite ASU to snag 4-star DT Todd Peat from Tempe
19 / 19 - Wisconsin - another year, another uninspiring class on (recruiting) paper which Wisconsin will likely coach up.
27 / 27 - Tennessee
31 / 31 - South Carolina - will Clowney become 32?

Floundering this year:

18 / 18 - Florida - What a disastrous transition. Held onto Story but lost many other heavy UF leans with Urban's departure. FSU & Miami making big waves, uphill battle for new boss in Gainesville. Still a solid class but a huge step back from where it was in December.
20 / 20 - Michigan - Darian Cooper heads to Kinnick, Jake Fischer abandons UM for Oregon. Sleeper Frank Clark gives UM a minor presence in Glenville.
16 / 16 - Penn St - Built up and then torn down by the same legend :(

 

[Gatorubet]

 

[jwinslow]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/02/04/saban-oversigning/index.html

I thought the direct rebuttal of Nick's lie about never springing a grayshirt on a kid was stinging, but not really anything new.

I thought this quote was stolen directly from our debate in this thread:

"I'm of the laissez faire philosophy that all is fair in love and recruiting," said Scout.com National Editor Allen Wallace. "It's easy to sit back and say oversigning should not be allowed if it's not your job. But ... these guys are paid millions and millions of dollars to protect their team. You're asking him to put his moral obligation to the player above his obligation to the school."

 

[Gatorubet]

I thought the direct rebuttal of Nick's lie about never springing a grayshirt on a kid was stinging, but not really anything new.

I thought this quote was stolen directly from our debate in this thread:

"I'm of the laissez faire philosophy that all is fair in love and recruiting," said Scout.com National Editor Allen Wallace. "It's easy to sit back and say oversigning should not be allowed if it's not your job. But ... these guys are paid millions and millions of dollars to protect their team. You're asking him to put his moral obligation to the player above his obligation to the school."

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU"]YouTube - Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in.[/ame]

I swear...

Me pointing out that the million dollar coach has a duty to his school to maximize his squad's talent level by any legal and ethical means is not saying what Allen Wallace said. Neither Smoov or I have ever said, "All is fair in love and recruitng..." "Fair" should mean not springing the possibility of a grey shirt on a kid last minute so that you can sign a higher ranked player. "Fair" should mean not lying to or mis-leading a kid about his place in your class. I continue to disagree that the mere act of signing more kids than the actual number of open scholarships on signing day - with nothing more - is/was morally wrong, or that oversigning per se is an unethical practice ignoring a moral obligation to a player. I continue to maintain that there is a balance: Oversigning is - IMO - a practice that any responsible coach should use to maximize the benefit to his program - so long as everything is up front and above board regarding early qualifiers and grey and red shirts. Telling a kid that you might not have room for him right away if every verbal offer comes through is fine with me: the kid decide himself whether to choose a sure thing with a different program - or a chance with your program.

Oversigning by a snake like Saban, using the number of medical waivers that he uses (and not telling kids until the last minute that they are greyshirted) is wrong. He damn well should be condemned for doing that. But what makes him a snake it not the act of "oversigning" (because he signed more kids on NSD than would meet a roster of 85 in the Fall), what makes him a snake is lying to kids and manipulating the system with excess medical waivers.

 

[BB73]

Every time Gator posts in this thread, a young child gets stuck in the eye with a fork.

 

[MililaniBuckeye]

Big 10 rules allow each program to intentionally oversign by three players over the yearly 85 roster, with the thought that attrition between NSD and the start of fall pratice will take care of the three spots. Why they do not care about the kids, only they can know.

Big difference between being three oversigned for the entire allotment and being a dozen oversigned for a single recruiting class, Mr. Layerman...

 

[Gatorubet]

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