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'Roids Hammer Coming Down Again Soon

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Jax: "OPS is the single most reliable indicator of offensive prowress and he's 4th all time among HOF 2B. He's 2nd in SLG% and 1st in career HR's."

You rely too heavily on OBP & SLG, my friend. They're useful stats, but not the be-all, end-all. There are more stats to be taken into account. OBP is one thing, but SLG will always favor a power hitter.

"Also if you think being the career HR leader for a position doesn't mean anything then why did they put Fisk in the HOF?"

Fisk doesn't belong in the Hall, either. Neither does Gary Carter. I've said that all along.

"Alomar had exactly 2 100+ RBI seasons in his career, Kents working on #8 as we speak(all time record for MLB 2B btw). Kents career OPS is about 50 points higher and he's got about 100 more HR's. Ditto for Biggio only he's never had a 100 RBI season."

Again, you're taking OBP & SLG and throwing every other stat out the window. Dude, OBP is a very important stat. Maybe the most important offensive stat in baseball. But SLG isn't as important as you think it is. Of course Kent is gonna have the highest OPS - he has the most home runs!

High Lonesome: "Does Ryno?"

No.

"but please tell me that you recognize a difference between a guy that fields and hits and a guy that just hits."

Dude, Edgar Martinez & David Ortiz aren't aging guys holding onto careers as a DH. Martinez had bad knees and couldn't play 3B, and Ortiz is horrible at 1B. DH is as much a position as 2B is. If the all-time leader in HR at 2B deserves 'automatic' induction to Cooperstown, then so does the DH.

Again, here's the danger about putting these career leaders in Cooperstown when they otherwise don't have a HOF resume: what happens when the record is broken?

Roger Maris hit 61 homers but otherwise didn't have a HOF career. If you put him in the Hall only because of 61, and his record is broken, then what claim does he have to the Hall?

Kent is the same issue - he has no other claim to Cooperstown other than the 2B Home Runs. You've got to have a complete resume to get into Cooperstown.

Look at Ron Santo & Graig Nettles. I bet they would fall highly in the 3B rankings, just as Kent does at 2B. But do they deserve the Hall??
 
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Again, here's the danger about putting these career leaders in Cooperstown when they otherwise don't have a HOF resume: what happens when the record is broken?
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I agree, except that when Kent retires he will be one of the top offensive 2nd basemen of all time. Which means something, since you said yourself that sandberg deserves to be in the HOF and that he wouldn't be there if he was a right fielder.


Dude, Edgar Martinez & David Ortiz aren't aging guys holding onto careers as a DH. Martinez had bad knees and couldn't play 3B, and Ortiz is horrible at 1B. DH is as much a position as 2B is. If the all-time leader in HR at 2B deserves 'automatic' induction to Cooperstown, then so does the DH.
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Martinez may not be old(i don't know his age) but he is hanging on to a career, look at your post, "Martinez had bad knees and couldn't play 3B," Ortiz is the exception not the norm for DH's. Ortiz is a great hitter and I would never try to take anything from him. The old guy comment was a little off but not completely out of sorts. Think about this....If Barry Bonds was proven never to have used steriods (obviously this is hypothetical) and decided that he could only continue his career by DHing in the AL and then proceeded to break Aaron's record, how would you feel? The record would stand, but it would be owned by a man that couldn't even field his position and would probably have given up the game if it wasnt for the DH. That type of thing doesn't bother you at all?

ESPN radio has just reported that they have information from very good sources that there has been a positive steriod test that will "bring baseball to its knees." It has not been officialy released so they couldnt say the name.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
Jax: "OPS is the single most reliable indicator of offensive prowress and he's 4th all time among HOF 2B. He's 2nd in SLG% and 1st in career HR's."

You rely too heavily on OBP & SLG, my friend. They're useful stats, but not the be-all, end-all. There are more stats to be taken into account. OBP is one thing, but SLG will always favor a power hitter.
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I cant wait to hear what you think is more important than not making an out and hitting the ball hard.


"Alomar had exactly 2 100+ RBI seasons in his career, Kents working on #8 as we speak(all time record for MLB 2B btw). Kents career OPS is about 50 points higher and he's got about 100 more HR's. Ditto for Biggio only he's never had a 100 RBI season."
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Again, you're taking OBP & SLG and throwing every other stat out the window. Dude, OBP is a very important stat. Maybe the most important offensive stat in baseball. But SLG isn't as important as you think it is. Of course Kent is gonna have the highest OPS - he has the most home runs!
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OBP is the more important component of OPS thats a no brainer but you totaly disregard SLG. OPS takes both into account and is therefore the single best indicator of offensive prowress. A hitters job is to not make an out first and do as much damage as possible second. OPS measure a players ability to do both of those things very accuratley. BA, which you seem to be in love with, counts all hits as equal so by its very nature is a flawed measurement. However, some people still hold to those things they heard from their little league and HS coaches and think a punch and judy .300 BA with a .700 OPS is better than a .270 BA with a .900 OPS.

BTW Kent has a higher career OBP than 4 current HOF 2B.


Roger Maris hit 61 homers but otherwise didn't have a HOF career. If you put him in the Hall only because of 61, and his record is broken, then what claim does he have to the Hall?

Kent is the same issue - he has no other claim to Cooperstown other than the 2B Home Runs. You've got to have a complete resume to get into Cooperstown.
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You just tried to use a guys best year as a reason to include him or not about 3 posts ago and now your saying the exact opposite. Gotta pick a side and stick with it. And as far as a complete resume goes, an MVP and multiple All-Star appearences round it out pretty well when your offensive stats measure up like Kents.

Of course your only side is to completely disregard anything Kent has done because you think he's on 'roids, Bonds made him and power doesn't mean jack shit to you so disregard all the facts and logic I've shown you and just continue on with your bias.

Kent will go into the HOF. He's the 2nd most prolific offensive player to ever play his position in the history of MLB, a former MVP and All-Star. The only argument you can have about Kent at this point is where he stacks up among other HOF 2B, not if he's going.

Look at Ron Santo & Graig Nettles. I bet they would fall highly in the 3B rankings, just as Kent does at 2B. But do they deserve the Hall??
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No idea, break out some numbers and lets look. Thats how I do it, but you seem to prefer to form an opinion and stick with it no matter what the facts tell you.
 
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High Lonesome: "Which means something, since you said yourself that sandberg deserves to be in the HOF and that he wouldn't be there if he was a right fielder."

Yeah, but here's the difference regarding Sandberg: he deserved to be at 2B. He was the best defensive 2B in baseball. Kent is in purely for his stick. You could put Kent anywhere else on the corner positions (3B/RF/LF/1B) and probably be a better team. You hurt your team if you take Ryno off 2B.

"Martinez may not be old(i don't know his age) but he is hanging on to a career"

Martinez retired last year, my friend. He was always a great hitter, but had bad knees going back to his early 20's. Had there been no DH, we never would've seen the Great Edgar Martinez. There's a great argument for the DH.

"If Barry Bonds was proven never to have used steriods (obviously this is hypothetical) and decided that he could only continue his career by DHing in the AL and then proceeded to break Aaron's record, how would you feel?"

Considering the fact that Aaron did the exact same thing (played 202 games at DH in his last two years for the Brewers), it wouldn't bother me at all.

"I cant wait to hear what you think is more important than not making an out and hitting the ball hard."

Because SLG can be skewed. For example, Rickey Henderson is the best offensive player I ever saw. He was single handedly good for a run a game all by himself. And what did his SLG pct tell me? Nothing. Mathmatically, SLG is going to favor Home Run hitters - even if those home runs are hit in meaningless games. 50 2B weighs as much as 25 HR in computing SLG pct. And a guy who can give me 50 2B a season is way more valuable than a guy that can hit me 25 HR.

"You just tried to use a guys best year as a reason to include him or not about 3 posts ago and now your saying the exact opposite."

No I said that career years are good for comparing players in their primes. Not for Hall of Fame candidacy. You're mixing my apples & oranges.

"Of course your only side is to completely disregard anything Kent has done because you think he's on 'roids, Bonds made him and power doesn't mean jack shit to you so disregard all the facts and logic I've shown you and just continue on with your bias."

Again, WHAT BIAS???? Kent has had nothing whatsoever to the New York Yankees! What possible skewed bias could I possibly have?? Did he stick itching powder in Steinbrenner's turtleneck, or something that I'm not aware of??

I disregard what Kent's done simply because (and read carefully): HE'S NOT A HALL OF FAMER, HASN'T HAD A HALL OF FAME CAREER, DOESN'T HAVE A HALL OF FAME RESUME, BUT PEOPLE (APPARENTLY YOU) WANT TO ANOINT HIM A HALL OF FAMER BECAUSE HE HAS SOME STUPID, USELESS, NOTHING HOME RUN RECORD FOR 2B. Period. Don't read anything else into my take. If you have any questions later, refer BACK to this statement.

"No idea, break out some numbers and lets look. Thats how I do it, but you seem to prefer to form an opinion and stick with it no matter what the facts tell you."

Okay, I'll pull out their 2B, 3B, SB, HR, AVG .. oh wait, I forgot. Those stats don't mean anything anymore.
 
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Jax: Here's what I'll say about the numbers being the "be-all, end-all." You gave me a list of 2B, gave me their numbers, and said that Kent eclipses them all but Hornsby. Given. But really, who is a better player (this is how you can throw numbers out the window)?

Preface: you have already stated that Kent has better numbers than all these 2B. Ok, lets play, better player:

Better player:

1. Nap Lajoie or Jeff Kent?

2. Rod Carew or Jeff Kent?

3. Jackie Robinson or Jeff Kent?

4. Joe Morgan or Jeff Kent? (If any Reds fan doesn't back me up on this, I'll be very dissapointed).

If your answer to any of the above 4 questions is "Jeff Kent," then I'm not continuing with this conversation anymore.
 
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BuckeyeNation27 said:
can somebody split this thread in two? suggested name for one of them being "Sloopy thinks he knows everything about baseball...if you disagree you are stupid."
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Actually I think Sloop knows his shit when it comes to baseball, but I agree that this feud needs to come to a close soon cause I'm getting sick of it as well...let's take it to PMs
 
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SN27: "can somebody split this thread in two? suggested name for one of them being "Sloopy thinks he knows everything about baseball...if you disagree you are stupid.""

I never called Jax stupid. In fact, I respect his opinions a lot. We just disagree adamently here.

Don't worry, you're still the only stupid one, Stalk.
 
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Golferdow01 said:
Actually I think Sloop knows his shit when it comes to baseball, but I agree that this feud needs to come to a close soon cause I'm getting sick of it as well...let's take it to PMs
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I'm sure he does know his baseball.....im just sick of his attitude where he needs to interject his opinion into anything remotely related and the rest of us are expected to take it as fact. Plus he's a shithead. Sorry shithead, but I can't read what you're calling me right now...you're still on ignore :lol:
 
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Sloopy45 said:
SN27: "can somebody split this thread in two? suggested name for one of them being "Sloopy thinks he knows everything about baseball...if you disagree you are stupid.""

I never called Jax stupid. In fact, I respect his opinions a lot. We just disagree adamently here.

Don't worry, you're still the only stupid one, Stalk.
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Don't know if stalk is stupid or not :wink2: but I definitly hold no malice toward Sloop and think he is a knowledgable baseball fan. Like he said we just disagree about a lot of baseball stuff.

Also agree this thread is about as hijacked as it can get and we can take it to the PM route or split it if it needs to continue.

BTW the big announcement was supposed to come at 4:30 and I haven't heard squat. There is just so much smoke to this there has to be some fire but you just never know.
 
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No need to take it to PM's. If somebody doesn't want to read this thread, they don't have to.

Since Sloop and Jax are being civil to each other, why stop the discussion?
 
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