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2022-2023 Ohio State Men's Basketball

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bigdog3300 said:
That may be the difference in opinions here between some? I've been a hardcore Buckeye basketball fan since the Jimmy Jackson days. I could see if you are not a big basketball fan, this wouldn't be that concerning. I'm not sure if you are a big fan or more of a casual fan.

I will say Mike, you keep mentioning that CCH is "at or above" historical norms, that is not true. You are judged on your successes, or failures, when the pressure is the highest. You don't get trophies for the pre-conference slate, you get it for regular season title, conference tourney, and March Madness. When Jim O'Brien and Randy Ayers have more success than you, that's a concern. You don't get to use winning percentage in the cupcake scheduling era that was not nearly the same in prior decades to justify success when you are beating Robert Morris, Charleston Southern, Eastern Illinois, St. Francis, Maine, Alabama A&M....and that's over half their wins right there!

The 'careful what we wish for' - we're in 13th out of 14th place, we've won two games this calendar year, we just scored 41 points at a home game, never advanced past the opening weekend, etc. what does worse look like? At least I'd be able to stomach this if there was a coach who couldn't recruit talent, the results would at least make sense there! When you can recruit at his rate and still not produce, it's even more clear he is not the answer.
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I want to win EVERY game. That's not realistic though. Not one fan wants to win more than the 18 or 19 guys in that locker room though. And I think that perspective is lost on this fanbase too.

I try to temper things with a sense of history, both recent and overall. I don't think Holtmann is John Wooden, or Fred Taylor or even Thad Matta but he's also not Randy Ayers or Jim O'Brien. Not being Matta or Taylor isn't a sin despite what the fanbase expects.

The timeframe from about 2005 through 2016 or so was the literal golden age of Buckeye athletics. Football was in National Title contention almost every year, basketball was at its absolute historical peak, the wrestling program was great with several all-time greats, Tennis was great, baseball even had a couple decent to good years, etc.

However, I do think parts of this fanbase has delusions of grandeur when it comes to basketball. I swear some people (not necessarily you) think it's footbal - its not - and no, you just can't fire a well-respected coach (and he is, you can't deny that) one year after an extension and after making the tournament in every year but 1. And do that and think you're going to get some sort of coaching upgrade at a school where basketball is a distant 2nd fiddle, in a city/state that does not care that much about basketball, in a state that overall also doesn't produce as much home-grown talent either - it's just not realistic at the moment.

So, yes, careful what you wish for. And I've posted it multiple times already so I won't, but CH is right at the program's historical norms. While not my standard, part of that being realistic (and therefore refusing to be miserable about something I can't and won't be able to change) means I am inferring that he's almost certainly making his goals for the one person whose opinion actually matters and that is Gene Smith.

In the end, you can choose to be miserable and bitch about something you have literally not one iota of a chance to change or affect, or you can shrug your shoulders and hope they bounce back next year and yes, if this hasn't turned around at all, its time for a new voice. However, of the two choices, I choose the latter. There are far larger things going on in this world than a top-25(ish) all-time basketball program's issues in any case.

As I said the other day, it is what it is.
 
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Bestbuck36 said:
Yup. His back issues and the drop foot were devastating to his ability on the recruiting trail and overall coaching effectiveness. Was on a legendary trajectory but alas.

Now they'll run Holtmann out so I hope it doesn't bite us in the ass for the next decade. This year is awful to be sure but if he leaves and the next guy has three straight losing seasons then what?
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The cycle will repeat probably.

Well, actually what will happen is most of the Matta-era bandwagon will depopulate and people won't complain as much because they won't pay attention.
 
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Mike80 said:
The cycle will repeat probably.

Well, actually what will happen is most of the Matta-era bandwagon will depopulate and people won't complain as much because they won't pay attention.
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I’ve been here since the Fred Taylor days. Watched him lay an egg with one of the best tOSU rosters ever.

Gary Williams was the guy who was really starting to build a program here. Unfortunately his alma mater came calling. Can’t blame him for going home.

I don’t think it’s just about Thad.
 
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RuGettinIt said:
Thad was in pain and couldn’t coach anymore . He should’ve walked away. Him going was inevitable at that point.
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RuGettinIt said:
I’ve been here since the Fred Taylor days. Watched him lay an egg with one of the best tOSU rosters ever.

Gary Williams was the guy who was really starting to build a program here. Unfortunately his alma mater came calling. Can’t blame him for going home.

I don’t think it’s just about Thad.
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Matta's end didn't have to be so derisive. More to the point, that was year 3 of extreme and increasing toxicity from the "fan"base. The cycle is repeating now.

And yes, it's about Thad. The program didn't have near the attention on it before the Thad-5. So long as CH is going to be held to some nebulous standards that only Matta met, it's about what Thad did. That's what following the program's best coach ever is about.
 
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Mike80 said:
Matta's end didn't have to be so derisive. More to the point, that was year 3 of extreme and increasing toxicity from the "fan"base. The cycle is repeating now.

And yes, it's about Thad. The program didn't have near the attention on it before the Thad-5. So long as CH is going to be held to some nebulous standards that only Matta met, it's about what Thad did. That's what following the program's best coach ever is about.
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Your perspective of tOSU basketball history and your hill. Enjoy it. Personally, I appreciated Thad’s teams and what he did here. I think without the medical issues things would’ve been different.

However, sorry/not sorry that some of us believe that tOSU basketball can be more than what it is under Holtman. With the resources that tOSU has, what’s going on under Holtman is criminal.
 
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RuGettinIt said:
Your perspective of tOSU basketball history and your hill. Enjoy it. Personally, I appreciated Thad’s teams and what he did here. I think without the medical issues things would’ve been different.

However, sorry/not sorry that some of us believe that tOSU basketball can be more than what it is under Holtman. With the resources that tOSU has, what’s going on under Holtman is criminal.
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Those resources have been around for 60 something years. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
 
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RuGettinIt said:
Or you can challenge the status quo that you’re so fond of lamenting and chart a new course for the program. Might take some balls, definitely fakes leadership and vision.
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I swear it's like you haven't read anything I said about it taking time and understanding what the historical norm is, so you can build upon that. I AM saying that someone meeting those norms aren't doing a "bad" job, which so many "fans" are currently saying. Yes, THIS year is bad. There's no one remotely denying that. It doesn't change the original point.

It's also like you completely glossed over my saying how it's not MY standard, but the standard of the one person on the planet whose opinion matters. In the meantime, feel free to remain miserable. I get the feeling you secretly enjoy it.
 
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Mike80 said:
I swear it's like you haven't read anything I said about it taking time and understanding what the historical norm is, so you can build upon that. I AM saying that someone meeting those norms aren't doing a "bad" job, which so many "fans" are currently saying. Yes, THIS year is bad. There's no one remotely denying that. It doesn't change the original point.

It's also like you completely glossed over my saying how it's not MY standard, but the standard of the one person on the planet whose opinion matters. In the meantime, feel free to remain miserable. I get the feeling you secretly enjoy it.
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I’m not miserable but thanks for the concern. I’ve read and I comprehend everything you’ve written over the season. I get what you’re saying, I just disagree that it has to be this way. History be dammed. It will continue to repeat if you don’t aspire to more. Cooper is a football example of that.

Yes, Gene doesn’t see things in the same light, and it’s unfortunate for the program and the fanbase of the largest University In the country. Gene made a huge mistake extending Holtman, not because of this season, but because of the warning signs that were there ahead of it.

Can I change it no, but it’s an Internet forum and just like you I can express my opinion. I get the feeling you secretly enjoy the argument.
 
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College basketball success is about the head coach. Look at Gonzaga, UF, UConn, etc. Look at the "blue blood" IU the past 20 years without RMK. Name me a program that has just plugged in a coach and continued rolling other than those that poached a proven elite coach. All this to say, OSU has the name and resources to bring in a coach that will have them in contention for the conference title and the round of 16 on a consistent basis regardless of the shadow of the Horseshoe and the so-called basketball fan base.
 
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