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Immunizations/Vaccinations

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How do you stand on immunizations/vaccinations?

  • For.

    Votes: 50 84.7%

  • Against.

    Votes: 3 5.1%

  • Indifferent/Other.

    Votes: 6 10.2%
  • Total voters
    59
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BUCKYLE;1115016; said:
Wouldn't your child be able to pass along the disease before symptoms are noticable?
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I don't know. I'm not a virologist, and I have no idea about activity v. dormancy of diseases.

However, this once again begs the question, IF vaccinations are supposed to provide superior defense than why should there be concern anyway?

*Please understand that I'm not attempting to defend my position with these questions. I'm just asking for discussion sake.
 
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BAH! all you people (with the exception of Shetuck) need to go read how these things work....

I only had a second to skim over before running out the door again but one thing I must stress based on my skimming is simple,

YOU DO NOT GET THE FLU FROM THE FLU VACCINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(and for for those think the flu is puking don't even waste my time, LOL.)
 
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muffler dragon;1115023; said:
I don't know. I'm not a virologist, and I have no idea about activity v. dormancy of diseases.

However, this once again begs the question, IF vaccinations are supposed to provide superior defense than why should there be concern anyway?
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I never understood vaccinations as the definite "cure" for disease. I always thought they were a small risk with the intention of giving the human immune system a blueprint for the most deadly of the viruses we come into contact with. A "heads up" to help create antibodies to the stuff we are most likely to come into contact with. Maybe I am way off base here...hell, I'm a construction worker, "activity v. dormancy" sounds like a comparisson of my summer to my winter. :biggrin:

*Please understand that I'm not attempting to defend my position with these questions. I'm just asking for discussion sake
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That's what I was doin'. :biggrin:
 
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shetuck;1115018; said:
I'm not an epidimeologist... but my wife is, so I can boast of a wealth of Clintonesque experience and expertise... :biggrin:
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LOL!!! I have read this post through, and I wish I could give you another GPA for such a well written post. Now to the meat...

shetuck said:
Anyway, the way I understood it when she tried to explain it to me (when I was suggesting that we make an unbiased assessment before vaccinating our our child) is this: the theory supports the conclusion that the benefits (to a whole population or "herd") of vaccination are much higher, mathematically, than the random risk that same vaccine poses to a few members.

So that's the trade-off that I think some have already mentioned in terms of the risk-vs-benefit. Each member of a population is taking an incalculable (I think?) risk in order to ensure higher overall / aggregate immunity for the whole "herd". It's sort of like the classic debates about conforming to laws which attempt to regulate taxes, speed limits, drugs, free trade, insurance, etc.; each individual gives up a little something in order to ensure the greater good.

Using economic theory, we could say that, by the same token, any individual making the choice to forgo vaccination could be considered a "free rider problem".

Why "free riders"? Because, those individuals enjoy all the benefits of the higher immunity of their herd, but are not taking on a proportionate share of the risk which each individual *should* (nominally) face.

Why is this a "problem"? If the theory of herd immunity is indeed correct, to the extent that an increasing number of individuals (free riders) choose not to vaccinate themselves, our herd runs the risk of a losing its aggregate immunity. Hence, while, as you pointed out, one member may be inherently more "resilient" or immune to a particular virus, the mathematics behind the theory of herd immunity suggests that, on aggregate, the larger population's aggregate immunity is lower and the herd is much more susceptible to a pandemic.

These are only theories and certainly there are well-reasoned and well-researched arguments against them. You have raised some of those arguments and I don't think it's fair to dismiss those off-handedly just because they appear to fly in the face of "conventional wisdom". But...
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I have questions that I could ask, but I'll not bog you down with using your wife as a resource. I will state that I understand everything that you have written above. Once again, very well written, and your verbiage is much appreciated.

shetuck said:
Like I said, not so long ago I stood where you are now, facing this same decision. And I can share that my wife and I made the choice to vaccinate. We were living in Africa at the time, at perhaps that weighed into our decision as well, but ultimately we felt that each individual in society has to risk a little bit and be willing to make some personal sacrifices in order to maintain / advance the health and welfare of the society in which they live.

We vaccinated our son knowing that he could have a random, but acutely adverse reaction to the vaccines. It does not mean that we loved him any less for having taken that chance. It just means that we felt it is one of the many sacrifices that we (and he) would necessarily have to make in order to offset our own negligence and sense of entitlement and try and work in unison and harmony with the society around us. We have many close friends who are motivated by and strive for the same goal (very succesfully, I might add), but have made the choice not to vaccinate their children. That choice has not fouled our friendship.

Thankfully, there are no *apparent* and *obvious* that the vaccines have caused any problems, but I'm not foolish enough to think that even if they had/have caused any, the problems would manifest themselves immediately or openly. The whole upstir here-and-there trying to connect vaccines with autism and the like is, for an example, continues to be a constant worry for me.

And I want to clarify that I'm not implying that you or your wife are "free riders". I am just pointing out that your actions might bring that stigmatic label with them. FWIW, to me, The fact that you're giving a lot of thought and consideration to the choice you face here (just as with the home-schooling issue) is an indication (to me, anyway) of your earnest desire, as parents, to give your kids the best possible shot (:biggrin:) at a healthy and productive life as beneficial members of society. I think that's highly commendable and I, for one, applaud you for that. I only wish that all children had parents, like you two, who cared for them as much as to so earnestly reflect on the choices that are made on their behalf.
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Wow! Your words humble me greatly. Thank you so much for everything you wrote, and I hope that you are also aware that I place no judgment on you or your wife in the decision you made. Different life experiences can and will bring different decisions to make.

I must admit that you have given me much to think about. I may have to exhaust my questions through more research, but suffice it to say, this is a welcome addition to the thread. :kudos:
 
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muffler dragon;1115002; said:
I have a sound knowledge of many of the chemicals used in vaccinations that are NOT the disease itself.
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I guess I'd like to hear a bit more about this if you get a chance... and... probably an explanation as to why you think those chemicals are bad-- it may be obvious.

If you want me to be honest MD, I don't find your arguments compelling as they stand now.

You bring up some good points, but, nothing I see that tips the scales in your direction... or even close.

The arguments you birng up as to the vaccination not necessarily preventing the disease or possibly making your child ill, etc aren't without merit. But, to me the question becomes, are you more likely to get sick from a vaccination vs. an actual carrier of the full bore disease... I think we know the answer to that. Of course, that gets into the likelihood of actually contracting the disease in question. Well, to some degree that hinges on how many people make the decision you are. I know you don't see it that way... but... when we're talking about Polio or something like that... its a pretty serious game of roulette you're playing.

I do have want to acknowledge the role of public sanitation, water, etc as a role in reducing communicable diseases... but from the point of spreading the disease and people having overall generally better health and nutrition to fight off illnesses. (Certainly the bubonic plague wouldn't be nearly the killer it was in modern times.) I'm not going to dispute that point... but... I think the view ought to be that all these things we have to increase the level of public health in this country are contributors to the disappearnce of these diseases... and fatalities as a result of them... vaccines included.

Finally... without looking at the real numbers, I'd tend to think that the risk of sickness/injury from vaccinations, while real, are probably somewhere south of getting killed driving to the grocery store in a given year... and at the same time, the ramifications to both your child and for others that might be impacted, the wrong choice is dire. Keep in mind that if your child does get sick from the vaccine that he/she is likely healthy enough to get over that based on all the reason you talked about before and that you care for her very well.

Finally, I want to mention that I share your inclinations to look toward homeopathic/naturopathic viewpoints. I think as a nation we are over medicated and over indulged by modern medicine... I don't even like to take cold medicine.

However, if I had cancer (Assume its reasonably curable) and I needed chemotherapy, I would take/do it... I think that with cancer drugs, we can be sure that the "side-effects" are a clear sign that they aren't especially "good for you." But, there's a point at which I wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face too... I realize the particular example is much more immediate... but... I just don't see where the risk of the "cure" is anywhere near the consequence of the "sickness" in either of these cases.
 
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sandgk;1115024; said:
Which chemicals do you have sound knowledge of?

(CAS Numbers accepted in any and all replies).
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Formaldehyde

Ethylene Glycol

2-Phenoxyethanol

Methanol

Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate

Tributyl Phosphate

Latex

Just so you're aware, I shall clarify my use of the word "sound":

: exhibiting or based on thorough knowledge and experience <sound scholarship>

: showing good judgment or sense <sound advice>

All but Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate (Borax) are involved in my industry. I have access to MSDS and such. While Borax I have played with at home.

All other ingredients can be found, but I don't have a working knowledge of them.
 
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AKAKBUCK;1115050; said:
I guess I'd like to hear a bit more about this if you get a chance... and... probably an explanation as to why you think those chemicals are bad-- it may be obvious.
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I posted some chemicals in my latest post to AKAK.

AKAK said:
If you want me to be honest MD, I don't find your arguments compelling as they stand now.

You bring up some good points, but, nothing I see that tips the scales in your direction... or even close.
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Fair enough. I'm not out to convince anyone. Just sharing.

AKAK said:
The arguments you birng up as to the vaccination not necessarily preventing the disease or possibly making your child ill, etc aren't without merit. But, to me the question becomes, are you more likely to get sick from a vaccination vs. an actual carrier of the full bore disease... I think we know the answer to that. Of course, that gets into the likelihood of actually contracting the disease in question. Well, to some degree that hinges on how many people make the decision you are. I know you don't see it that way... but... when we're talking about Polio or something like that... its a pretty serious game of roulette you're playing.
Click to expand...

I understand your POV. Ultimately, I'll sum it up like this: there are no guarantees.

AKAK said:
I do have want to acknowledge the role of public sanitation, water, etc as a role in reducing communicable diseases... but from the point of spreading the disease and people having overall generally better health and nutrition to fight off illnesses. (Certainly the bubonic plague wouldn't be nearly the killer it was in modern times.) I'm not going to dispute that point... but... I think the view ought to be that all these things we have to increase the level of public health in this country are contributors to the disappearnce of these diseases... and fatalities as a result of them... vaccines included.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think it's a combination of variables. I just don't view vaccinations as having as big a role as others do.

AKAK said:
Finally... without looking at the real numbers, I'd tend to think that the risk of sickness/injury from vaccinations, while real, are probably somewhere south of getting killed driving to the grocery store in a given year... and at the same time, the ramifications to both your child and for others that might be impacted, the wrong choice is dire. Keep in mind that if your child does get sick from the vaccine that he/she is likely healthy enough to get over that based on all the reason you talked about before and that you care for her very well.

Finally, I want to mention that I share your inclinations to look toward homeopathic/naturopathic viewpoints. I think as a nation we are over medicated and over indulged by modern medicine... I don't even like to take cold medicine.

However, if I had cancer (Assume its reasonably curable) and I needed chemotherapy, I would take/do it... I think that with cancer drugs, we can be sure that the "side-effects" are a clear sign that they aren't especially "good for you." But, there's a point at which I wouldn't cut off my nose to spite my face too... I realize the particular example is much more immediate... but... I just don't see where the risk of the "cure" is anywhere near the consequence of the "sickness" in either of these cases.
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I understand all the things you have written above. The only statement I'll make is that it's not a valid comparison (IMO) to equate these diseases and cancer. I don't think they're in the same ball park, and I may very well be mistaken. But one does not (and I don't believe there's any work to find any) get a vaccination for any sort of cancer. The best one can do with regard to cancer is to attempt to live a healthy lifestyle, and ultimately, that may not matter a lick at all. Thus, I think I follow the point you're attempting to make, but I think it's a giant leap for any connection.
 
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buckeyes_rock;1115079; said:
Actually there's a new one out for young girls that helps prevent against cervical cancer. Just an FYI...you have a daughter, correct?


Gardasil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Thanks for that. I recall seeing information this some time ago.

I believe I would place this vaccine under the TBDBMD (to be determined by my daughter) title. Reason being (taken from your link):

According to the Centers for Disease Control, by the age of 50 more than 80% of American women will have contracted at least one strain of HPV.
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According to the link, the testing is primarily performed in the 16-26 age range. Thus, she'll be of the age to make her own decision. Same would hold true for my wife.
 
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B_rock's post reminded me of something that I alluded to earlier, but never really took much further.

For those who are not aware, an infant does not produce antibodies for about the first six months of life. Thus, the beginning vaccinations/immunizations hold little to no value.

Other random thoughts:

1) Last I read, there is no reduction in vaccine dosage between adults and children. This may have changed since I last read. But that is a cause for concern.
2) Question: how many of those that are pro-vaccine have regularly gotten their booster shots?
 
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