MLB General Discussion (Official Thread)

[tibor75]

Oil,

If my list was up to me, Donald Arthur Baseball would be # 1. I even knew that a post like that was coming from you, so I tried to make an argument against Gehrig. But in the end, I couldn't do it. Gehrig is a better hitter than Ted Williams. I will argue this with anybody, and have the stats to back it up.

P.S. I guarantee this: no more Yankees will make the Top 10. At least not from what I've seen so far.

Mattingly is the most overrated player in the 1980s. Hilarious how he gets any HOF consideration. He had 4 good years. If he played for any other team, he wouldn't even be remembered. Probably not a coincidence that the Yankee glory years started when his frail ass was gone.

 

[AmeriBuck007]

Mattingly is the most overrated player in the 1980s. Hilarious how he gets any HOF consideration. He had 4 good years. If he played for any other team, he wouldn't even be remembered. Probably not a coincidence that the Yankee glory years started when his frail ass was gone.

todays equivalent to Jorge Posada Pronounced: hor-hay po-sa-da

never has hit over .285 once in his career lifetime sub .270 hitter and still has been consistantly being an all star catcher..

 

[BIATCHabutuka]

gotta put williams ahead of gehrig.

when you have tons of guys on base in front of you rbi's just happen. if you looked at the respective yankees and red sox teams i would imagine you would see gehrig with more guys on base to drive in in front of him and better protection hitting behind him.

when does a guy like cy young or the big train come in. good pitching always beats good hitting. shouldn't a pitcher (alright a full time pitcher) be number one.

 

[BB73]

# 5 to come tomorrow. I've researched and come up with the Top 7 so far. And I'll put it to you this way: BuckeyeBill knows what he's talking about.

Very rarely does the amount of time I spent reading the Baseball record book in my youth do me any good.

Posada never has hit over .285 once in his career lifetime sub .270 hitter and still has been consistantly being an all star catcher..

Ameribuck,

You're just barely wrong, and I'm not a Yankee fan, but an advocate of facts:

Year Ag Tm Lg...G..AB...R...H..2B.3B..HR..RBI..SB..BB..SO...BA...OBP
1996 24 NYY AL .8..14...1...1...0...0...0....0....0....1....6....071 .133
1997 25 NYY AL .60.188.29.7..12...0...6...25...1...30...33...250 .359
1998 26 NYY AL 111 358 56 96 23..0..17..63...0...47...92...268 .350
1999 27 NYY AL 112 379 50 93 19..2..12..57...1...53...91...245 .341
2000 28 NYY AL 151 505 92 145 35 1 28..86...2...107.151 .287 .417
2001 29 NYY AL 138 484 59 134 28 1 22..95...2....62..132 .277 .363
2002 30 NYY AL 143 511 79 137 40 1 20..99...1....81..143 .268 .370
2003 31 NYY AL 142 481 83 135 24 0 30.101..2....93..110...281 .405
2004 32 NYY AL 137 449 72 122 31 0 21..81...1....88..92....272 .400

He hit .287 in 2000, and his career average is .27011 in the regular season. (It's .267 if you combine regular and post-season).

 

[NewYorkBuck]

Sloops, how would a Ruth or a Cobb do today? On one hand you have to count on the influence of the specialist pitchers....situational relief, closers, etc. Both of these guys played in the Iron Man age when 100 pitches wasn't jack. However, you also have to look at hitter-friendly ballparks and a miniscule strike zone...both designed to enhance offense.

I guess the answer to this you will never know, but Im not sure how much easier the game was back then either. I do know they both got into the box with no batting helmet, and the umps back then didnt give a shit if they threw at your head or not. Also, there were no illegal pitches or substances.

For my money, the best way to compare players between eras is relative to their contemporaries. In this light, one stat always stands out to me - the first year Babe Ruth didnt pitch, he hit 54 homeruns (1920). I believe the old record was 29, set by him the previous year as a part time pitcher. (Not totally sure on that one, but I think I recall reading that). What I am sure of, however, and what still totally blows my mind, is that in 1921, his 59 homeruns were more than EVERY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE. No other TEAM conglomerately hit more than 59 homeruns. (I think Philly came closest - as a team I believe they hit exactly 59 that year). Not even with all the riods in the world will a player ever even approach that in todays game. Hence, when Bonds hits more HRs than every other team in baseball, then you can start to compare him to the Babe for me.

On another note (as also cited by Sloopy above), its even more interesting that many dont know that Ruth would have made it into the HOF even if he stayed a pitcher. When he moved to RF, he was still one of the best, if not THE best, pitchers in the game. For a while he held the record for shutout innings in a WS.

All the above considered, Ruth to me is the greatest player of any sport in American history. I would put Wayne Gretzky with a similar but lesser dominance of his sport second. Afterall, Gretzky wasn't the best goalie in the league before he moved to center....

Also, whoever said Mattingly was the most overrated player of the 80s in my opinion doenst know squat about baseball, especially hitting. That was the time when I was still a baseball fanatic, and I can honestly say that Mattingly was the best pure hitter that I have ever seen. Because he hurt is back and wrist later on in the decade does nothing to compromise that fact.

 

[Sloopy45]

Tibbs: "Mattingly is the most overrated player in the 1980s."

This statement is purely to get under my skin, but I'll take the bait. Since you're a big Reds fan, I'll take the best player (IMO) the Reds had at the time, and compare him with Donnie to see who was better. This is coincidentally, the same year, and they were both great players who's careers were derailed by injury.

1.) Eric Davis, 1986: G-132 AB-415 R-97 H-115 2B-15 3B-3 HR-27 RBI-71 SB-80 BB-68 K-100 AVG-.277 OBP-.378 SLG-.523 TB-217

2.) Don Mattingly, 1986: G-162 AB-677 R-117 H-238 2B-53 3B-2 HR-31 RBI-113 BB-53 K-35 AVG-.352 OBP-.394 SLG-.573 TB-388

Let's see: 100+ Runs, 230+ Hits, 50+ Doubles, 30+ Homers, 100+ RBI, and a .350 Average. Gee, that's real overrated: and that's not even his MVP Season. Mattingly was the best player in baseball before his back went out. Does he belong in the Hall? Probably not.

And NOW! This is for BuckeyeBill: THE FIFTH GREATEST PLAYER IN BASEBALL HISTORY ....

5. 'DOUBLE X' Jimmie Foxx: We've got two Yankees and two Red Sox in the Top 5, and deservedly so. Foxx is probably the most underrated Superstar of all time. His numbers are outrageous, and he was the centerpiece on one of the greatest dynasties in the history of the sport (Connie Mack's 1929-31 Philadelphia A's). Here's the case for Foxx:

Stats:
Foxx retired in 1945 2nd all-time in Home Runs (534): Amazingly, 180 behind Ruth! He was the 2nd best power hitter of his time (behind 'You Know Who,' of course), making a run at 'You Know Who's' single-season record of 60 in 1932 (58), and hitting 50+ Homers (twice), 40+ Homers (five times), and 30+ Homers (twelve times). And, oh yeah: that 1932 Season? Check this out (one of the best seasons you're gonna find): R-151 H-213 2B-33 3B-9 HR-58 RBI-169 BB-116 K-96 AVG-.364 OBP-.469 SLG-.749 TB-438. Oh by the way, that was the year BEFORE Foxx's Triple Crown season.

Reasoning:
Bottom line, Foxx's numbers are better than Mays, Aaron, Musial, and Hornsby. In fact, the only guy (by the numbers) that I can argue ahead of Foxx is Barry Bonds, and I'm not doing that in wake of the steriod scandal. Of the five players I mentioned above, Foxx's 162 game projected 134 RBIs are way better than anyone else: the next closest is Horsby and Aaron, with 114 and 113, respectively. Not even close to Foxx. Foxx also has a .609 SLG (none of the steriod-free four are even close: Hornsby is .577. And oh yeah, Foxx also hit .325 lifetime. He is the 5th Greatest Player of All Time.

Awards:
9 time All-Star, 3 time MVP ('32, '33, & '38), AL Triple Crown in '33 (HR-48 RBI-163 AVG-.356), two batting Titles, and four Home Run Titles.

Bottom Line:
BuckeyeBill knows the dilly. Foxx is easily one of the Top 5 to ever play this sport. # 6 to come soon.

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

My son got to play in a tournament at the baseball HOF stadium and did the museum... My son is a big, strong kid... and said they have a duplicate bat of Ruths you can swing... said it is NOT a bat... it's a tree... made of concrete.. said it was unbelievably heavy... something like 54 ounces...

Also, Tom Verducci is the lead baseball writer for Sports Illustrated...and a bud of mine... couple years ago I asked him how an All-Time team could ever be determined... He voiced the exact thing NYB did... said you have to look at the player in comparison to the competition in his day...

 

[Sloopy45]

NJ-Buckeye: "said you have to look at the player in comparison to the competition in his day..."

Obviously. But, I can't do that. If someone wants to pay me to take every player in baseball history, average them out, and then compare who was the best against their era, then its a go. Till then, all I can do is compare the numbers and accomplishments flatly.

Here's my take on the statistical bias of my list: look, the 1930's was the greatest offensive period in the history of baseball (even better than the steroid 90's). In the 30's you have unbelievable numbers out of Foxx, Gehrig, a young DiMaggio, Greenberg, Hornsby, even Hack Wilson, etc. Look at some of the years in that decade. Those players are going to rank very high because the period they play in produced almost unthinkable stats. Power numbers matured and exploded, and the averages and RBI totals stayed very high.

I'm just saying that my methods aren't perfect, but take it with a grain of salt and enjoy. This is for entertainment purposes ONLY.

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

any way to take some other elements other than just offense into consideration? Manny Ramirez will do very well in this kind of rating... but when you take into consideration he should have to play with a football helmet when he's on defense would impact how I would rate him...

Mickey Mantel may have been the fastest player of his day... outstanding defense and a demon on the bases... (can't believe I'm sticking up for a Yankee)... so that should move him up...

I do applaud you for the painstaking effort to even try to assemble an all-time list... makes my head hurt even attemtping that effort.. I couldn't assemble my 10 best for the last decade let alone all-time

 

[BB73]

Double-X at #5. I like it.

I also like the 2-year average for 1932-33:

.360 avg, 53 HR, 166 RBI in a 154-game season.

He only hit 23 homers after the 1941 season, when he was 33 years old and hit his 500th home run. Imagine his final HR total if he had started taking steroids at age 34!

 

[Sloopy45]

NJ-Buckeye: "any way to take some other elements other than just offense into consideration?"

I don't see how. I can't comment on Cap Anson's pick-off tag, George Sisler's arm, or Mordecai "Three-Finger" Brown's curveball. I never saw any of them play, and defensive stats are useless.

My ranking is based on offense, plain and simple. The only other variable I put into the equation is longevity. For example, Hank Greenberg may have better stats than Hank Aaron (I don't know that, just for argument's sake), but Greenberg was at the top of his game for ten seasons and Aaron played for 25+. I have to rank Aaron over Greenberg because his totals blow him out of the water.

"Mickey Mantel may have been the fastest player of his day... outstanding defense and a demon on the bases... (can't believe I'm sticking up for a Yankee)... so that should move him up..."

Mantle will be on this list, rest assured. He won't crack the Top 10 (maybe not Top 15), but the "Commerce Comet" will be in the Top 25 somewhere for sure. I haven't taken a close enough look at the Mick just yet.

 

[Sloopy45]

Okay, its been awhile, but I'm picking this task up again. I want to preface this selection with an asterisk. I had a lot of trouble making this pick, but I figure I have to put this guy in the Top 10, even though his ranking is a complete farce. You can argue against this, and you'd have a very valid point. But the Sixth Greatest Player in baseball history is:

6.* Barry Lamar Bonds. "The Balco Blaster." Of the next five players in the Top 10, Bonds blows them away in too many categories (predominantly as a result of his leap in production since 2001. Go figure). You could easily argue Bonds as higher on this list purely by the numbers, but you can also argue whether or not those numbers are legit.

Stats:
Bonds' numbers from 2001-2004 are unquestionably the best statistical seasons since Babe Ruth. Easily. No one else in the last 80 years is close. In that period, he's set single season records for Home Runs (73), Walks (232!), OBP (.609!), SLG (.863!), Intentional Walks (120), & OPS (1.4217). Most of those records haven't been sniffed since the Babe hung em up, and none of them will ever be broken. He's the only guy in the 500-500 Club (703-506), and he was the 2nd 40-40 Player in baseball history in 1996 (42-40). On paper, Bonds is as impressive as anybody.

As far as totals are concerned, Bonds is 6th all time in OBP, 5th in SLG, 6th in Runs, 7th in TB, 3rd in Homers, 12th in RBI, 1st in Walks, 4th in Extra Base Hits, and 1st in Intentional Walks (604 - wow!).

Awards:
The most decorated player in baseball history. SEVEN MVP's! (no one will ever approach that again - the next highest total is 3, shared by many HOF'ers). 13 time All-Star, 8 time Gold Glover, 12 Silver Sluggers, & 2 Batting Titles, too.

Bottom Line:
This is a farce, but I had to put him somewhere. I couldn't ignore Bonds completely. Had there been no 'Roids, I think Bonds would fall somewhere in the Top 25 all time, and would be a first ballot HOF'er.

Because of Balco, I think Bonds & all his steroid-using cohorts should be held out of Cooperstown forever. They've ruined all the records in the book, which (to me, anyway) is the equivalent of raping the fabric of baseball. If people want to argue against Pete Rose's eligibility, then Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, et al. have committed an equally henious crime & should be denied baseball immortality. Forget the asterisks because that will never happen, but the BWAA can make this right: don't vote them in!

Remember, all these records will stand for all time: can you ever see a clean player clubbing 60 homers again, much less 73?? No way. It will stay in the record book, and no one will ever take it seriously. And that's a big part of what baseball's importance is in America.

Anyway, now that I got this one out of the way, I will move on to the legit 7-10.

 

[LordJeffBuck]

They've ruined all the records in the book, which (to me, anyway) is the equivalent of raping the fabric of baseball.

Excellent post, especially the above. As a kid, I memorized all of the stats, and tried to figure out (for example) who was the better slugger - Jimmie Foxx or Harmon Killebrew, and would Reggie Jackson end up being better than either one. Now, I simply don't care. Barry Bonds is the Hulk Hogan of baseball - a champ, but a farcical one.

 

[BB73]

Sloop, I agree with what you said on Bonds. And I'm glad they're won't be any more Yankees inthe top-10, but someone who began and ended his career in that same city is certainly due for an appearance soon.

 

[Sloopy45]

LJB: "Barry Bonds is the Hulk Hogan of baseball - a champ, but a farcical one."

Actually, Hogan was more of a legit Champ than Bonds is. He's the first guy to win the WWF Strap more than twice, he became the 9th Champion in WWF History on January 23, 1984 when he defeated Iran's greatest athlete (the Iron Shiek) in Madison Square Garden, he's the only guy to ever beat Andre the Giant, and who could ever forget his riveting performance in 'Suburban Commando.'

Trivia: before Hogan, the Iron Shiek held the belt for exactly 29 days: December 26, 1983 to January 23, 1984. What's really pathetic is that I didn't have to look any of this up.

bb73: "Sloop, I agree with what you said on Bonds. And I'm glad they're won't be any more Yankees inthe top-10, but someone who began and ended his career in that same city is certainly due for an appearance soon."

Say Hey! Whoever could you mean?? I'm researching your New York-New York guy against a guy who started and ended his career in Milwaukee, and two other guys. I don't know who to pick yet. Results to come soon.