Fungo Squiggly
Mortal enemy of all things Bucky
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The Reds also had 10 guys in double digits in 1999 and 2000.
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- Thread starter Sloopy45
- Start date
Brett wasn't called out... by Keuhn out for two reasons...
The first is... and this is less compelling... that it was stupid rule.... obviously, the Pine tar didn't help Brett hit that dinger. (although, I never knew that Munson got called out before that)
The second reason... is the way Martin Handled it... by waiting for a big hit to use it... and everyone knew he did just that... there is some precedence to that line of thought though... mostly related to uniforms and what not... I remember Vida Blue used to always wear different stirrup's than the rest of the Royals (Bunch of damned cheaters
) and somebody demanded that he change them in about the fifthe inning of the game...he was tossing about a 2 hitter at the time. The Umpire told the opposing Manager that he had been wearing the same socks for the past 5 innings, and he wasn't going to make him change now... the opposing team appealed to the commissioners office.. and dunno if it was old Bowie or not... but upheld the Umps decision in that case.
There's gamesmanship, and then there's Gamesmanship, I guess... So Omar Vizquel can Complain about Arthur Rhodes' diamond earrings after strike one.. but not after he gets k'd... Or like when guys get busted for Corked bats... the hits they get with them don't get taken away... they just get suspended... or.. pissed off that someone would accuse them...
To the letter of the law, of course... Brett Should have been out... but...
The first is... and this is less compelling... that it was stupid rule.... obviously, the Pine tar didn't help Brett hit that dinger. (although, I never knew that Munson got called out before that)
The second reason... is the way Martin Handled it... by waiting for a big hit to use it... and everyone knew he did just that... there is some precedence to that line of thought though... mostly related to uniforms and what not... I remember Vida Blue used to always wear different stirrup's than the rest of the Royals (Bunch of damned cheaters
) and somebody demanded that he change them in about the fifthe inning of the game...he was tossing about a 2 hitter at the time. The Umpire told the opposing Manager that he had been wearing the same socks for the past 5 innings, and he wasn't going to make him change now... the opposing team appealed to the commissioners office.. and dunno if it was old Bowie or not... but upheld the Umps decision in that case. There's gamesmanship, and then there's Gamesmanship, I guess... So Omar Vizquel can Complain about Arthur Rhodes' diamond earrings after strike one.. but not after he gets k'd... Or like when guys get busted for Corked bats... the hits they get with them don't get taken away... they just get suspended... or.. pissed off that someone would accuse them...
To the letter of the law, of course... Brett Should have been out... but...
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Sloopy45
Pimp Minister Sinister
AKAK: "that it was stupid rule.... obviously, the Pine tar didn't help Brett hit that dinger"
No question about it. But a rule is a rule. If they wanted to change the rule at the end of the season, fine. But the fact of the matter is, that Brett hit the HR with an Illegal Bat under the rules of the time. Wipe off the HR, he's out.
There's no 'spirit of the rule' or 'lets take everything back, the rule is stupid' that can be done in the middle of the season. That's ridiculous.
"To the letter of the law, of course... Brett Should have been out... but..."
Since when has a Commissioner of any sport overruled an umpire's call on the field? That was complete b.s.
No question about it. But a rule is a rule. If they wanted to change the rule at the end of the season, fine. But the fact of the matter is, that Brett hit the HR with an Illegal Bat under the rules of the time. Wipe off the HR, he's out.
There's no 'spirit of the rule' or 'lets take everything back, the rule is stupid' that can be done in the middle of the season. That's ridiculous.
"To the letter of the law, of course... Brett Should have been out... but..."
Since when has a Commissioner of any sport overruled an umpire's call on the field? That was complete b.s.
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Here's an interesting articel about it... It wasn't the Commish's call, btw.
Other Voices: Pine Tar game forever links Brett, MacPhail
By DAVID NIELSEN
GUEST COLUMNIST
Twenty years ago today, 33,944 fans at Yankee Stadium witnessed one of the most bizarre episodes in baseball history -- the Pine Tar incident.
Twenty years ago Monday, millions of fans across the nation witnessed one of the gutsiest -- and for Yankee-haters -- gratifying rulings in baseball history.
The events forever linked two men who later would be inducted into Baseball's Hall of Fame: Kansas City Royals third baseman George Brett and American League President Lee MacPhail. Both plan to be at the Hall's induction ceremonies this weekend in Cooperstown, N.Y., where both have plenty to reminisce about.
On July 24, 1983, Brett smashed the most famous of his 317 career home runs, a two-out, two-run blast off Rich Gossage that gave the Royals a 5-4 ninth-inning lead over New York -- for a few minutes, anyway. Yankees manager Billy Martin immediately complained, saying that the pine tar on Brett's bat extended beyond the 18-inch limit specified in the rulebook. After comparing the pine tar on Brett's bat to the 17-inch wide home plate, the umpires called Brett out, took away his home run and declared the game over.
Brett when ballistic, charging out of the dugout to protest the call, apparently to no avail.
The Royals filed an official protest with the American League. The Royals' argument was based as much on common sense as history. They insisted that pine tar, which the barehanded Brett used for a better grip, didn't affect the flight of the ball. They added that Brett's bat hit the ball above the sticky stuff, anyway. And they noted that MacPhail had denied a protest by the California Angels in 1975 when the Angels accused the Royals' John Mayberry of having too much pine tar on his bat when he hit two homers in a game.
Former Royals announcer Fred White remembers saying on the air that the Royals would win the protest.
"The umpires put together three rules to come up with the ruling they made, and I remember saying protests are rarely upheld," said White, "(but) that the Royals will protest this game and I feel certain that it will be upheld.
"Then my career went before my eyes, thinking, 'What if I'm wrong here?' "
Even if it appeared that the Royals had a case, it seemed like a huge long shot. There were numerous reasons for MacPhail to rule for the Yankees, some of which were serious, others simply sinister and conspiratorial.
MacPhail lived and worked in New York City.
MacPhail had served as Yankees general manager from 1967-74.
The league office had developed a reputation of favoring the Yankees.
The Yankees had won eight of their past nine games and were in a tight pennant race with eventual World Series champion Baltimore. The Royals were piddling along to a sub-.500 season.
There was precedent for calling a batter out for excessive pine tar. In 1975, Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was called out by umpires for having too much pine tar after he hit a run-scoring single.
MacPhail hadn't upheld a protest in his 10 years as A.L. president.
But MacPhail proved he wasn't beholden to his former employers or to a rigid reading of the rulebook. After four days of deliberation, MacPhail overturned the umpires' decision, reinstated Brett's home run, and said the game would be resumed on Aug. 18. The Royals went on to win, 5-4.
"My feeling is that the rule was put in to prevent the spoiling of balls," said MacPhail this week from his home in Redding, Conn. "The clubs were losing a lot of balls because the pine tar was getting on them, and they'd have to be thrown out in batting practice and everything else. So they put the rule in and put a limit on how high the pine tar could go. But the pine tar in Brett's case had no effect on the distance that the ball could travel. The pine tar had nothing to do with the ball going out of the ballpark. I don't even think that the ball touched the pine tar part.
"I hated to overrule the umpires, but in my opinion we should follow the intent of the rule and the spirit of the rule, not the strict ruling of the rule. The intent of the rule had nothing to do with affecting a home run or affecting a ball that was hit that didn't even hit the pine tar."
MacPhail was excoriated by the Yankees and their fans. In a statement that earned him a $250,000 fine, owner George Steinbrenner said, "If the Yankees lose the pennant by one game, I wouldn't want to be Lee MacPhail. I suggest he go house hunting in Kansas City."
Asked if he would change anything about his decision, he said, "I'd do it exactly the way I did."
Thanks to endless TV replays over the years, everyone remembers Brett's ballistic reaction after he was called out. Brett, 50, was traveling in Italy this week, but has said previously that he relished the attention.
"Prior to 1983, I was always ridiculed at ballparks about an ailment (hemorrhoids) I had during the 1980 World Series," said Brett, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1999. "Now, since 1983, I'm always known as the Pine Tar Guy. Now what would you rather be known as?"
MacPhail, 85, entered the Hall in 1998. His plaque at the Hall doesn't mention the Pine Tar game, but it does say, "His name is synonymous with integrity and sportsmanship."
Amen to that. MacPhail's Solomonic ruling was a rare example of fairness and common sense triumphing over greed and legal technicalities.
Other Voices: Pine Tar game forever links Brett, MacPhail
By DAVID NIELSEN
GUEST COLUMNIST
Twenty years ago today, 33,944 fans at Yankee Stadium witnessed one of the most bizarre episodes in baseball history -- the Pine Tar incident.
Twenty years ago Monday, millions of fans across the nation witnessed one of the gutsiest -- and for Yankee-haters -- gratifying rulings in baseball history.
The events forever linked two men who later would be inducted into Baseball's Hall of Fame: Kansas City Royals third baseman George Brett and American League President Lee MacPhail. Both plan to be at the Hall's induction ceremonies this weekend in Cooperstown, N.Y., where both have plenty to reminisce about.
On July 24, 1983, Brett smashed the most famous of his 317 career home runs, a two-out, two-run blast off Rich Gossage that gave the Royals a 5-4 ninth-inning lead over New York -- for a few minutes, anyway. Yankees manager Billy Martin immediately complained, saying that the pine tar on Brett's bat extended beyond the 18-inch limit specified in the rulebook. After comparing the pine tar on Brett's bat to the 17-inch wide home plate, the umpires called Brett out, took away his home run and declared the game over.
Brett when ballistic, charging out of the dugout to protest the call, apparently to no avail.
The Royals filed an official protest with the American League. The Royals' argument was based as much on common sense as history. They insisted that pine tar, which the barehanded Brett used for a better grip, didn't affect the flight of the ball. They added that Brett's bat hit the ball above the sticky stuff, anyway. And they noted that MacPhail had denied a protest by the California Angels in 1975 when the Angels accused the Royals' John Mayberry of having too much pine tar on his bat when he hit two homers in a game.
Former Royals announcer Fred White remembers saying on the air that the Royals would win the protest.
"The umpires put together three rules to come up with the ruling they made, and I remember saying protests are rarely upheld," said White, "(but) that the Royals will protest this game and I feel certain that it will be upheld.
"Then my career went before my eyes, thinking, 'What if I'm wrong here?' "
Even if it appeared that the Royals had a case, it seemed like a huge long shot. There were numerous reasons for MacPhail to rule for the Yankees, some of which were serious, others simply sinister and conspiratorial.
MacPhail lived and worked in New York City.
MacPhail had served as Yankees general manager from 1967-74.
The league office had developed a reputation of favoring the Yankees.
The Yankees had won eight of their past nine games and were in a tight pennant race with eventual World Series champion Baltimore. The Royals were piddling along to a sub-.500 season.
There was precedent for calling a batter out for excessive pine tar. In 1975, Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was called out by umpires for having too much pine tar after he hit a run-scoring single.
MacPhail hadn't upheld a protest in his 10 years as A.L. president.
But MacPhail proved he wasn't beholden to his former employers or to a rigid reading of the rulebook. After four days of deliberation, MacPhail overturned the umpires' decision, reinstated Brett's home run, and said the game would be resumed on Aug. 18. The Royals went on to win, 5-4.
"My feeling is that the rule was put in to prevent the spoiling of balls," said MacPhail this week from his home in Redding, Conn. "The clubs were losing a lot of balls because the pine tar was getting on them, and they'd have to be thrown out in batting practice and everything else. So they put the rule in and put a limit on how high the pine tar could go. But the pine tar in Brett's case had no effect on the distance that the ball could travel. The pine tar had nothing to do with the ball going out of the ballpark. I don't even think that the ball touched the pine tar part.
"I hated to overrule the umpires, but in my opinion we should follow the intent of the rule and the spirit of the rule, not the strict ruling of the rule. The intent of the rule had nothing to do with affecting a home run or affecting a ball that was hit that didn't even hit the pine tar."
MacPhail was excoriated by the Yankees and their fans. In a statement that earned him a $250,000 fine, owner George Steinbrenner said, "If the Yankees lose the pennant by one game, I wouldn't want to be Lee MacPhail. I suggest he go house hunting in Kansas City."
Asked if he would change anything about his decision, he said, "I'd do it exactly the way I did."
Thanks to endless TV replays over the years, everyone remembers Brett's ballistic reaction after he was called out. Brett, 50, was traveling in Italy this week, but has said previously that he relished the attention.
"Prior to 1983, I was always ridiculed at ballparks about an ailment (hemorrhoids) I had during the 1980 World Series," said Brett, who was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1999. "Now, since 1983, I'm always known as the Pine Tar Guy. Now what would you rather be known as?"
MacPhail, 85, entered the Hall in 1998. His plaque at the Hall doesn't mention the Pine Tar game, but it does say, "His name is synonymous with integrity and sportsmanship."
Amen to that. MacPhail's Solomonic ruling was a rare example of fairness and common sense triumphing over greed and legal technicalities.
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tibor75
Banned
That kind of stuff happens all the the time. During the Kings/Habs Stanley Cup series, the Habs complained near the end of Game 2 about somebody's stick. They were down a goal I believe and used the resulting powerplay to tie it up, eventually win the game, and then the series. There is nothing wrong with bringing up rule violations at the time when you most can benefit from the penalty.
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LoKyBuckeye
I give up. This board is too hard to understand.
Congress to consider perjury for Palmeiro
Associated Press
Posted: 2 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP) - Congress will investigate whether baseball slugger Rafael Palmeiro perjured himself when he told a House committee that he hadn't taken steroids.
With the player's consent, Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, and the committee's ranking Democrat, Rep. Henry Waxman of California, asked Major League Baseball on Wednesday to turn over information about the failed drug test that resulted in a 10-day suspension for Palmeiro this week.
On March 17, Palmeiro appeared before their panel and, pointing a finger in the air, said under oath, "I have never used steroids. Period."
"As a practical matter, perjury referrals are uncommon," Davis told The Associated Press. "Prosecutions are rare. But this is a high-profile case, so I think it will get an honest look-see. I don't think anyone can avoid it."
"If we did nothing," he added, "I think we'd look like idiots, don't you?"
On Wednesday, Palmeiro agreed to release information about his failed drug test to Congress, including the results, dates of the tests and other relevant details.
The Baltimore Orioles slugger tested positive for the powerful steroid stanozonol, a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity Wednesday. The person did not want to be identified because the sport prohibits disclosure about test results without authorization.
Rafael Palmeiro is sworn in before testifying in a March House Committe session investigating baseball's efforts to eradicate steroid use. (Mark Wilson / Getty Images)
Government Reform Committee chairman Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican, and ranking Democrat Henry Waxman of California issued a statement Wednesday saying Palmeiro has "pledged his full cooperation" with their inquiry.
"The Government Reform Committee today is requesting from Major League Baseball documents related to Rafael Palmeiro's suspension for a positive steroids test. The Committee is seeking the results of the drug tests, the date of the tests, and other relevant information," the statement said.
"He has agreed to authorize the release of all relevant documents to the Committee, which will help us fully understand the facts of the situation. Once we review the documents, we will determine our next step."
In confirming that he would cooperate with the committee, Palmeiro said that if it has any additional questions, "I am ready and willing to answer each and every one of them."
Palmeiro, who testified before a congressional panel in March that he "never used steroids," became baseball's highest-profile player to receive a 10-day suspension Monday after testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug.
Stanozolol, known by the brand name Winstrol, is most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada, who was stripped of his 100-meter gold medal in 1988. It is not available in over-the-counter supplements and is known as a powerful strength-builder, casting doubt on Palmeiro's claims that he ingested the drug unwittingly.
The test came after Palmeiro's appearance before Congress in March but before he recorded his 3,000th hit last month, meaning he reached the milestone - joining Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray as the only players with 3,000 hits and 500 homers - knowing that steroids had been detected in his body.
Palmeiro was the seventh player to fall under baseball's new, tougher steroids policy; Seattle Mariners right-hander Ryan Franklin became the eighth when he was also suspended 10 days for a violation Tuesday.
Associated Press
Posted: 2 hours ago
WASHINGTON (AP) - Congress will investigate whether baseball slugger Rafael Palmeiro perjured himself when he told a House committee that he hadn't taken steroids.
With the player's consent, Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, and the committee's ranking Democrat, Rep. Henry Waxman of California, asked Major League Baseball on Wednesday to turn over information about the failed drug test that resulted in a 10-day suspension for Palmeiro this week.
On March 17, Palmeiro appeared before their panel and, pointing a finger in the air, said under oath, "I have never used steroids. Period."
"As a practical matter, perjury referrals are uncommon," Davis told The Associated Press. "Prosecutions are rare. But this is a high-profile case, so I think it will get an honest look-see. I don't think anyone can avoid it."
"If we did nothing," he added, "I think we'd look like idiots, don't you?"
On Wednesday, Palmeiro agreed to release information about his failed drug test to Congress, including the results, dates of the tests and other relevant details.
The Baltimore Orioles slugger tested positive for the powerful steroid stanozonol, a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity Wednesday. The person did not want to be identified because the sport prohibits disclosure about test results without authorization.
Rafael Palmeiro is sworn in before testifying in a March House Committe session investigating baseball's efforts to eradicate steroid use. (Mark Wilson / Getty Images)
Government Reform Committee chairman Tom Davis, a Virginia Republican, and ranking Democrat Henry Waxman of California issued a statement Wednesday saying Palmeiro has "pledged his full cooperation" with their inquiry.
"The Government Reform Committee today is requesting from Major League Baseball documents related to Rafael Palmeiro's suspension for a positive steroids test. The Committee is seeking the results of the drug tests, the date of the tests, and other relevant information," the statement said.
"He has agreed to authorize the release of all relevant documents to the Committee, which will help us fully understand the facts of the situation. Once we review the documents, we will determine our next step."
In confirming that he would cooperate with the committee, Palmeiro said that if it has any additional questions, "I am ready and willing to answer each and every one of them."
Palmeiro, who testified before a congressional panel in March that he "never used steroids," became baseball's highest-profile player to receive a 10-day suspension Monday after testing positive for a performance-enhancing drug.
Stanozolol, known by the brand name Winstrol, is most notably linked to the Olympic sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada, who was stripped of his 100-meter gold medal in 1988. It is not available in over-the-counter supplements and is known as a powerful strength-builder, casting doubt on Palmeiro's claims that he ingested the drug unwittingly.
The test came after Palmeiro's appearance before Congress in March but before he recorded his 3,000th hit last month, meaning he reached the milestone - joining Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray as the only players with 3,000 hits and 500 homers - knowing that steroids had been detected in his body.
Palmeiro was the seventh player to fall under baseball's new, tougher steroids policy; Seattle Mariners right-hander Ryan Franklin became the eighth when he was also suspended 10 days for a violation Tuesday.
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powerlifter
▪█───────█
It's a joke. When people actually accept steroids are used in all sports instead of trying to believe their heros aren't using,then the outlook of sports will be much more realistic.
Trust me...You don't take an illegal substance (AS) and get results in a day. I'm guessing he was taking oral winstrol,but I haven't read the whole thing. The detection time is 3 weeks and it takes about a week to kick in. So it's not been long since he was on.
I can't understand why you'd wanna take winstrol honestly. If you know about about AS it's actually a weak steroid. Regardless what these so called analyzists say about it. It will make your joints ache like a bitch and severely injury prone. Not to mention possibility of hair loss.
To say he didn't know he was on something is disrepectful and only makes him look like a fool. He might as well be on cops saying "Thats my friends coke! I swear!"
Trust me...You don't take an illegal substance (AS) and get results in a day. I'm guessing he was taking oral winstrol,but I haven't read the whole thing. The detection time is 3 weeks and it takes about a week to kick in. So it's not been long since he was on.
I can't understand why you'd wanna take winstrol honestly. If you know about about AS it's actually a weak steroid. Regardless what these so called analyzists say about it. It will make your joints ache like a bitch and severely injury prone. Not to mention possibility of hair loss.
To say he didn't know he was on something is disrepectful and only makes him look like a fool. He might as well be on cops saying "Thats my friends coke! I swear!"
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tibor75
Banned
Baseball's policy is being revealed as a joke more and more every day.
First of all, why can't they say what substance it is? Give me a fucking break. The public deserves to know if it was something like andro or something real like what Palmero took.
Second of all, say some athlete tests positive in August. He appeals in secret and while this is going on, he leads his team to the divison title. Then, at the end of September, his suspension is revealed. Heck, I doubt his suspension would even include post-season games.
Anyone else amused by the ESPN dumbasses like Tim Cuntjin still calling this piece of shit a Hall of Famer?
First of all, why can't they say what substance it is? Give me a fucking break. The public deserves to know if it was something like andro or something real like what Palmero took.
Second of all, say some athlete tests positive in August. He appeals in secret and while this is going on, he leads his team to the divison title. Then, at the end of September, his suspension is revealed. Heck, I doubt his suspension would even include post-season games.
Anyone else amused by the ESPN dumbasses like Tim Cuntjin still calling this piece of shit a Hall of Famer?
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Misanthrope
Banned
Given the recent years of my favorite teams - the Pirates and Royals - the only thing that keeps me in the game is fantasy baseball.bucknut11 said:
Take it up with Donald Fehr and the Players' union. Say what you want about Selig, but he wanted it to be 50 games (1st offense), 100 games (second offense) and lifetime (strikes 3, yer out!). We have 10 games, and the secrecy, because the union fought him every step of the way. Now, we know why.tibor75 said:
Looks like the Cubs were right when they traded him years ago. They said he would never hit for power. Without the juice, they may have been exactly right.
When a 30-something year old athlete needs Viagra, something's amiss...I think we know the reason now.
This is just politics. His failed test occurred after his testimony. With no proof that he was on them previously, there's no evidence of perjury...although common sense suggests he probably did lie.LoKyBuckeye said:
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powerlifter
▪█───────█
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123596tibor75 said:
The Baltimore Orioles slugger tested positive for the powerful steroid stanozolol, a person with knowledge of the sport's drug-testing program told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity Wednesday. The person did not want to be identified because the sport prohibits disclosure about test results without authorization.
Stanozolol is winstrol..For what that's worth..
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OHSportsFan
Fan of Ohio Sports in Indy
not even 10 GAMES, just 10 days. Which for Palmeiro and most other offenders is about 9 games.Misanthrope said:
It truly is a joke. It should be atleast 35 games 1st offense. And maybe throw in a test once a month for the offender.
Writers NEED to take a stand on Palmeiro and not let him in the Hall. Or if they do let him in, I really like the idea brought up earlier in this thread about letting it be known to all his true legacy and how he achieved his stats. I would accept a section of the Hall that has the cheaters and such but says on their plaque their discresions to the game as suggested.
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