Yankee-Killers

[Sloopy45]

I was gonna write this as a PM to Sears, but why not post it on the board:

In my life as a Yankee fan, the two people who absolutely, positively destroyed the Yanks (more than anybody) are a.) David Ortiz, and b.) Edgar Martinez.

I remember George Brett killing the Yanks, but most of what I saw was later in his career (first memory in that regard was the Pine Tar Game), and I was too young to ever see the great Yankees-Royals Series of the late 70's, early 80's.

That being said, why is nobody knocking this guy on his ass?? Not to hurt him obviously, but put some fear in him, get him off the plate, give him a little bow-tie ... how can you let him continue to hit moon-shot after moon-shot with no chin music?

Whatever people want to say: bean-balls are a part of baseball, and a part of intimidation. The Red Sox reversed 86 years of futility by beaning Jeter (8 times in the last three seasons), knocking Soriano out of games, and every other Yankee hitter until they finally turned the tables and put the tide in their favor. Why aren't the Yankees doing the same?

Mike Piazza used to own (and I mean OWN) Roger Clemens, until he got hit, that is. Its unacceptable to me that no one has the balls to put this guy on his ass and let him keep killing the team.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

damn misleading topic.....i was ready to throw a party.

 

[tibor75]

Would you have the guts to mess with somebody with Jebus as his teammate?

 

[Sloopy45]

BuckeyeNation27: "damn misleading topic.....i was ready to throw a party."

Sorry. I had one in the works about you, entitled 'Yankee-Stalkers' but I decided to go with this one instead. Didn't mean to mislead you.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

its ok, just make sure theres a dead yankee the next time you post. present yankee preferably.

 

[Misanthrope]

I was gonna write this as a PM to Sears, but why not post it on the board:

Is this the same guy who throws a fit when someone other than Sears chimes in on one of his many Yankee threads? Trust your instincts.

I was too young to ever see the great Yankees-Royals Series of the late 70's, early 80's.

I didn't realize you were that young. It explains a lot...this thread, for example.

The Red Sox reversed 86 years of futility by beaning Jeter (8 times in the last three seasons), knocking Soriano out of games, and every other Yankee hitter until they finally turned the tables and put the tide in their favor.

So that's how they did it. I thought they did it by exploiting the Yanks weak starting pitching last season, but it turns out it was the result of beanballs over a period of years.

Why aren't the Yankees doing the same?

I guess Joe Torre, and his staff, haven't pieced this all together the way you have - perhaps you should email this post to them.

By the way, Mike Piazza "owned" a lot of guys before 2000, and his numbers have dropped consistently since then. I would venture to guess that age has had more to do with it than getting beaned once by Roger Clemens, but that's just me.

 

[Sloopy45]

B&M: "So that's how they did it. I thought they did it by exploiting the Yanks weak starting pitching last season, but it turns out it was the result of beanballs over a period of years."

I love getting in-depth discussion with a Pirate fan who doesn't watch any of these games. But I digress, and for the sake of conversation, I'll be civil:

First off, the Red Sox didn't abuse Yankee starting pitching in the '04 ALCS, for the most part: Mussina was 1-0 with a 4.26, Jon Lieber pitched great (could've won twice), El Duque gave up a modest 3 runs in 5 Innings in his start, and the only real implosion was the Brown/Vazquez disaster in Game 7. It was a lot closer Series than people will remember.

Secondly, for years, the Red Sox were afraid of the Yankees, afraid of the ghosts, afraid of 'Mystique & Aura', and knew that no matter what they did, the Yankees would always beat them. In my opinion, it took a long time to change this, but one of the factors in changing it was beaning the Yanks and making them afraid & intimidated by the Red Sox, and not the other way around.

"By the way, Mike Piazza "owned" a lot of guys before 2000, and his numbers have dropped consistently since then. I would venture to guess that age has had more to do with it than getting beaned once by Roger Clemens, but that's just me."

Piazza was hitting over .700 with 3 Home Runs in like 15 ABs against Clemens before the beaning. He owned a lot of guys, but not like that.

Piazza (in his prime) was the best outside breaking ball hitter from the right side that I ever saw. Pitchers would throw a pitch way outside (tailing away on the corner), and he would lean over the plate and hit it a mile. Therefore, he killed Clemens because Roger couldn't get the outside split-finger over against Piazza, which is the Rocket's bread & butter in his latter years. I'll even put it this way: Piazza's strength was hitting against Roger's strength. A deadly combo for a pitcher when a hitter owns his best pitch.

After the beaning, Piazza never leaned over the plate against Clemens & couldn't get to the outside fork ball anymore.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

maybe somebody should throw a bat at ortiz

 

[Brutus1]

Secondly, for years, the Red Sox were afraid of the Yankees, afraid of the ghosts, afraid of 'Mystique & Aura', and knew that no matter what they did, the Yankees would always beat them. In my opinion, it took a long time to change this, but one of the factors in changing it was beaning the Yanks and making them afraid & intimidated by the Red Sox, and not the other way around.

[.

They started spending alot of money on payroll, that's a good place to start.
More likely than the beanings of a few players. They're just spending alot of money more wisely than Geo. and Co. are spending.

 

[AKAK]

That being said, why is nobody knocking this guy on his ass?? Not to hurt him obviously, but put some fear in him, get him off the plate, give him a little bow-tie ... how can you let him continue to hit moon-shot after moon-shot with no chin music?

Well.... probably because the Yankees pitching staff sucks and they'll get theri starter tossed immediately?

I often wonder why they give up moon shot after moon shot, too. Is it because Yankee pitching is so bad that rather than pitching around the guy they are grooving batting practice fastballs?

the other thing is... that Beanballs aren't going to do a whole lot of good against some guys... I imagine big Daddy is one of those dudes....

On the Piazza thing... two issues... first... the .700 and 3 dingers in 15 AB's aren't exactly a big sample size... not like they played 20 games against each other a year... they weren't even in the same league.... (also.. Joey Belle could get on an outside breaking ball pretty well from the right side.)

Also. I don't see how people will forget how close of a series that one last year was.... the whole point is that the Yankees had 4 shots to close it... and whether you view it as the Yankees Choking or the Red Sox Mraculous comeback ability.... it was clearly close... it went 7 games.... spectacular.

Anyway.... all this Yankee/Red Sox Crap is going to get moot pretty fast if both of them don't get more consistent pitching... neither are a very good playoff team 'right now.'

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "Well.... probably because the Yankees pitching staff sucks and they'll get theri starter tossed immediately?"

No one's getting tossed on one hit batsman early in the game. And who says it has to be in the 1st? Hit him in the 7th, but hit him!

"I often wonder why they give up moon shot after moon shot, too. Is it because Yankee pitching is so bad that rather than pitching around the guy they are grooving batting practice fastballs?"

Ortiz has one weakness: an inside pitch in the perfect spot, in on the hands. However, if you miss (even slightly) low & inside, high & inside, or over the plate, you're right in his sweet spot. I never saw a hitter with such a small difference between his weakness & his strength. Gotta be middle-in, or its an upper decker.

Plus, like I said: he's leaning way over the plate, and he's dug in. You gotta back him off.

"the other thing is... that Beanballs aren't going to do a whole lot of good against some guys... I imagine big Daddy is one of those dudes.... "

I disagree. Beanballs have created many a slump. You gotta try something .. its either try something else, or let him keep hitting upper deck shots.

"(also.. Joey Belle could get on an outside breaking ball pretty well from the right side.)"

Agreed. ManRam too. But IMO, Piazza was the best I ever saw at it. He would pull those balls over the fence. Forget about taking them to left field.

 

[Misanthrope]

B&M: "So that's how they did it. I thought they did it by exploiting the Yanks weak starting pitching last season, but it turns out it was the result of beanballs over a period of years."

I love getting in-depth discussion with a Pirate fan who doesn't watch any of these games.

Yeah, right. I don't watch the MLB playoffs because I'm a Pirates fan. I don't subscribe to MLB Extra Innings because I'm a Pirates fan. I've never seen the Red Sox-Yanks play each other, even though every game is on TV.

You have a bad habit of making assumptions off the top of your head. To wit:

First off, the Red Sox didn't abuse Yankee starting pitching in the '04 ALCS, for the most part: Mussina was 1-0 with a 4.26, Jon Lieber pitched great (could've won twice), El Duque gave up a modest 3 runs in 5 Innings in his start, and the only real implosion was the Brown/Vazquez disaster in Game 7. It was a lot closer Series than people will remember.

The series was 4-3 - obviously, it was close. But to say it was because of cumulative beanings over the years is laughable.

The Yankees team ERA and team WHIP were both higher than Boston's in the 2004 playoffs, despite the 19 run outburst NY put on the Bosox in game 3. Also, opponents batted .279 versus NY; Boston's opponents batted .248.

Secondly, for years, the Red Sox were afraid of the Yankees, afraid of the ghosts, afraid of 'Mystique & Aura', and knew that no matter what they did, the Yankees would always beat them. In my opinion, it took a long time to change this, but one of the factors in changing it was beaning the Yanks and making them afraid & intimidated by the Red Sox, and not the other way around.

How many of last year's Red Sox were Red Sox 5 years ago? Ortiz? Nope. Millar? Nope. Damon? Nope. Mueller? Nope. Arroyo? Nope. Schilling? Nope. Foulke? Nope. Bellhorn? Nope.

Heck, most of those guys weren't Red Sox 3 years ago, let alone 5.

How the hell your long-term reverse-intimidation theory applies to those, and other, Red Sox players is something only you can understand. "Ghosts" mean a lot more to fans than players. Those new Red Sox weren't "intimidated" by shit that happened years before they even became Red Sox.

"By the way, Mike Piazza "owned" a lot of guys before 2000, and his numbers have dropped consistently since then. I would venture to guess that age has had more to do with it than getting beaned once by Roger Clemens, but that's just me."

Piazza was hitting over .700 with 3 Home Runs in like 15 ABs against Clemens before the beaning. He owned a lot of guys, but not like that.

15 ABs, huh? Now there's a representative sample for ya.

Piazza (in his prime) was the best outside breaking ball hitter from the right side that I ever saw. Pitchers would throw a pitch way outside (tailing away on the corner), and he would lean over the plate and hit it a mile. Therefore, he killed Clemens because Roger couldn't get the outside split-finger over against Piazza, which is the Rocket's bread & butter in his latter years. I'll even put it this way: Piazza's strength was hitting against Roger's strength. A deadly combo for a pitcher when a hitter owns his best pitch.

After the beaning, Piazza never leaned over the plate against Clemens & couldn't get to the outside fork ball anymore.

Piazza's batting average:

2000-.324
2001-.300
2002-.280
2003-.286
2004-.266
2005-.247

Piazza's slugging percentage:

2000-.614
2001-.573
2002-.544
2003-.483
2004-.444
2005-.432

Now I'm supposed to believe that Piazza's decline versus Clemens is a result of the beaning. That might be believable (despite the ridiculously small sample size) if not for the fact that Piazza's production has been steadily declining against everyone else - did they all bean him?

You need to dig a little deeper before spouting off these theories. Of course, that wouldn't be as much fun for me, but I digress...

 

[sears3820]

Sloops...

I agree with you on the basic premise of throwing a few high & tight to Ortiz. It's a part of the game especially when a hitter is tearing the opposing team a new asshole. It has been shown to be effective in the past. Whether it works on Big Papi remains to be seen. What else are you going to do though? Keep letting him beat you?

I'm just afraid of what would transpire after the beaning, especially if it was up around the squash.

 

[BB73]

It's so easy for AL pitchers to throw at guys, since the DH keeps them from ever stepping up to the plate themselves.

Pussies.

 

[cincibuck]

A) What do you expect in a league that has the DH? What kind of balls do you have to have to throw at batters in a league where you never have to step up to the plate?

B) What's a Yankee fan doing on anything other than the Notre Dame site?

C) Looks like George is playing boss again. Good. When he's large-and-in-charge the Yankees suck.

D) You think the Yankees lack backbone, come down and watch the Reds... please. You expecting sympathy?