Indians Tidbits (2009 season)

[NFBuck]

I will say that Wedge has showed nothing but class handling this situation. I can't say he's not a stand up guy and a team guy, he just was seriously lacking in almost every way as a manager.

Concocting a list off the top of my head, I hope these guys get some consideration...
- Brad Mills: Sawks Bench Coach. Don't know if he has the same clause as Farrell, but a lot of folks think he'll be a good manager someday. Comes from a winning organization that has done a nice job of developing young talent.
-John Farrell: Sawks Pitching Coach. Similar to Mills. Has some ties to the Tribe. Smart guy who is good with pitchers...that will be critical with all the young arms on their way.
- Joey Cora: Chisox bench coach. Had a big hand in the Mets productive farm system a few years back. Another guy that gets mentioned a lot as a future manager.
-Ron Roenicke: Angels bench coach. Has been Sciosca's right hand man in LA for 10 years as part of a successful organization.
-Don Mattingly: Dodgers hitting/bench coach. Probably not leaving Torre's side, but he's a smart guy, has been around the game a long time and been a part of a lot of winners.

Inside the organization:
- Torey Luvollo: Another guy that gets lots of mentions. Said to be a pretty good guy at developing players, could relate to a lot of the talent already here since he's already had a hand in their development.
- Tim Bogar: Manage, Akron. Same as Lovullo and has had sme success as a manager with the Aeros (250-168).

I believe when they say they don't want to go this route. I think if they really thought they had a viable candidate internally, the move would have been made much sooner. If they can't nail it this time, I think Bogar (if they can hang on to him) and Travis Fryman are names to watch.

Obviously, I prefer the (relatively) younger guys. Granted, none of these guys have ML managerial experience, but all are considered good managerial prospects. I just don't like the idea of bringing in a retread. There are some guys I wouldn't mind terribly...Pena, being one, but I prefer the young fiery guy. Just my opinion. Of course, it could blow up in our face like Wedge, but so could bringing in a more experienced guy...it's a crapshoot really unless you can attract a proven winner and there aren't any of those really available unless you want to count Grover. Incidentally, the last time the tribe went outside the organization was John MacNamara in '91.

 

[NFBuck]

The Indians were one win away from the World Series two years ago, 5 years after Wedge took over a rebuilding job. A lot of managers have tried to do similar things, and failed, so don't assume the next guy will automatically be better.

I don't pay enough attention to the Tribe to have a strong opinion on Wedge but I do know the talent level declined since 2007, through no fault of his own. Cleveland better look at their front office's performance as well.

Absolutely they should look at the FO. It isn't all on Wedge, you'd be foolish to say so, but he has bumbled too many things to stay on. If there's a worse manager strategically in baseball, I don't know who that is. His teams have regularly stumbled out of the gate, are below average to poor fundamentally and his handling of bullpens has been criminally incompitent at times (talent level not withstanding). Looking at a managers pythagorean numbers are a good indication of how he's handling what he's given and Wedge's numbers are deplorable in that area...-26 for his career including -11 in '06 and -7 this year. He's been -5, -1, -3, -11, +5, -4 and -7 in his seven years. That's quite an indictment on his overall ability to manage a team.

 

[NFBuck]

Masterson pitching a beauty, 1 run, 11 K through 7. Unfortunately, the bats have decided to take the 2nd game off. Of course, with this lineup...

Carroll
Crowe
Shoo
Peralta
LaPorta
Shoppach
Marte
Toregas
Romero

...guess you can't expect much action.

 

[NFBuck]

Wednesday, September 30, 2009

Wedge And Entire Staff Let Go

Posted by Tony at 11:48 AM
The Indians today announced that the organization will not retain manager Eric Wedge for the 2010 season, which was to be the final year of his contract. In addition to this announcement, all seven members of his coaching staff have also been informed that they, as of now, will not return next year. It is possible that some of the coaches could return in some capacity depending on who the new manager is, but it looks likely that they will start completely from scratch with the entire coaching staff.

For now, Wedge and the rest of his coaching staff will remain in their present positions for the final six games of the season. The Indians will hold a press conference today with General Manager Mark Shapiro at 1:30PM, and followed by Wedge at 2:00PM.

The Indians had some last minute meetings among all members of the front office staff last night, and it was then that they came to the conclusion to make the move today to announce that Wedge will not return.

So where do the Indians go from here? There is a lot of buzz that Boston Red Sox Pitching Coach John Farrell is the leading candidate for the job. At this point, he is the clear frontrunner for the job. It was reported by FoxSports' Ken Rosenthal a few days ago that Farrell has a clause in his contract which would prevent him from seeking another job opportunity this offseason, but it is very possible that the clause could be waived in light of an opportunity for a promotional move from pitching coach to manager. If Farrell is interested in seeking the opening as the Indians' manager, at this point there appears to be no reason why the Red Sox would not let him pursue the job opportunity.

Farrell would be a very good choice. The Indians idealy do not want a complete outsider to be added to the coaching mix since they would want someone to come on board who is familiar with their philosophy. This is not a requirement as at this point they will likely explore all manager options available to them, but it is something they prefer. Farrell is a former player in the organization and was the Farm Director from 2001 to 2006, joining the front office when Shapiro was promoted to General Manager. With Farrell coming from a very successful Red Sox organization, he can also help give the Indians some new insight and views based on his experiences working in Boston.

There has also been some talk of Mike Hargrove coming back as he expressed interest in a recent radio interview of wanting to manage again. Whether or not the interest is mutual from the Indians perspective is unknown at this point, but while becoming the manager again may not be likely for Hargrove it is a possibility he could be named a bench coach for Farrell or whoever assumes the manager role.

Once the manager is named, look for Triple-A Columbus Manager Torey Lovullo to be added as a coach in some capacity, likely the third base coach. Lovullo also will receive strong consideration for the manager opening, though he would seem to be down a little on the Indians' priority list at this point.

Also, Triple-A Columbus Pitching Coach Scott Radinsky looks to be almost a given to assume the pitching coach duties no matter who the manager ends up being. Radinsky is well received in the system and one of the better pitching coaches in the minors. He also has an excellent rapport with his players, and is very familiar with every pitcher who should make up a very young staff in Cleveland in 2010 and beyond.

Indians Prospect Insider

Most of the early talk is centering around Farrell despite the clause in his contract. Interesting mention of Grover coming on as bench coach and Lovullo as 3rd base coach. Should be an interesting offseason if nothing else.

 

[buckeyemania11]

The Indians were one win away from the World Series two years ago, 5 years after Wedge took over a rebuilding job. A lot of managers have tried to do similar things, and failed, so don't assume the next guy will automatically be better.

I don't pay enough attention to the Tribe to have a strong opinion on Wedge but I do know the talent level declined since 2007, through no fault of his own. Cleveland better look at their front office's performance as well.

my opinion

Wedge got lucky in 2007

the starters were constantly putting up quality starts and he barely had to manage a bullpen

in years when he actually had to think about managing the pen, the Tribe were pretty bad because Wedge really has no clue how to manage a Pen

 

[Best Buckeye]

From what I gather this is what happened in Cleveland.
the brass trade away all of the good players and then fire the manager, is that right?

 

[buckeyemania11]

9 IP 12 K for Masterson, best start of his Indians career

and he loses 1-0

 

[NFBuck]

Tidbits from the presser...

The Indians have informed Eric Wedge that he willl not return as manager next season. His entire coaching staff is also being released, although one or more may be re-hired by the next manager. Wedge and the coaches will finish out the season in Boston this weekend.
Wedge has a career record of 560?568 and is the fifth longest-tenured manager in major league baseball. Clint Hurdle, who previously held the fifth slot, was fired earlier this year by the Rockies. The Indians opened the season 14?26 and more recently went through a 3?20 stretch.
Shapiro's comments from today's 1:30 p.m. press conference, courtesy of woodsmeister [followed by my comments]:

• Next manager strong voice in determining staff, so staff will not be back. [Pretty standard move.]
• Wedge ?epitome of team player?, ?exemplary leader.? [I don't doubt this, but that doesn't mean he created an environment conducive to winning or got the most out of each player.]
• On why ? ?accountability lies across the organization.? This starts with Shapiro, extends to operations staff and players. ?As we examined everything ? we felt this was the right time to make a change on Eric ? Arrived at decision collectively that this was the right time for a change.? [Of course, we likely won't ever know who really wanted what, among Shapiro, Antonetti, and the Dolans.]
• ?My reluctance is more related to my emotions, and my underlying respect for Eric.?
• ?Any time there is change, there is an opportunity, and we have to seize the opportunity.? [Another management fortune cookie.]
• ?I was hopeful that this wasn?t going to come. I was hopeful that there would be an opportunity to create a more positive environment for him to continue here.? [Coming close to saying this is a PR firing only, but maybe "positive environment" refers to the clubhouse as much as the public perception.]
• ?From the time we?d made the decision, Eric?s known.? [He clearly knew when Castro posted that last Q&A.]
• On why fans Ohio don?t like Wedge ? ?He?s consistent. This is an entertainment business and maybe he?s not flamboyant enough.? [Maybe. Or maybe it's all the losing. How many managers are actually popular?]
• ?The goal would be to build a team that never dips too far down, that has opportunities to contend and play in the postseason as regularly as possible. I think the goal does evolve as the game evolves, and as the terrain evolves. I would hope we never go through a prolonged losing period and have consistent windows to contend.? [In a way, this was Wedge's downfall. The 2006 and 2008 clubs posted mediocre records but not out-and-out disasters. This was his first truly bad club.]
• On Wedge -?He?s very consistent with the values of Northeast Ohio. He?s a blue collar worker, hard-nosed guy, extremely honest. Extremely consistent. In the end, maybe why, this isn?t entertainment, it?s business. Maybe he wasn?t flamboyant enough, kept his feelings internal. Fans want to see those, on the shirtsleeve, they want to feel the frustration, they want to feel the emotion, and Eric, to protect the players, didn?t often do that.? [Yet he still dimed out Peralta repeatedly.]
• ?There were tough times, when he and I bumped heads.? [Wouldn't we love to know what those were, other than cutting loose Brandon Phillips.]

And now comments from Wedge:

• It was his decision to stick around the last few games. ?I?d still want to finish what we started here. It would be the right thing for the players. One thing we?ve always done here is to put the players first.?
• ?I think it?s how you finish, not how you start.? [Unintentional humor here? Maybe if he thought it was "how you start," we wouldn't have started terribly almost every year of his tenure.]
• ?I?m the manager of the team. It?s my job to go out and win ballgames. You know, there's not an asterisk after that saying, it's only if you have this, that or the other. I?m a big believer in being accountable for what I do. I preach that to the players, it's the way I live my life.?
• On managing a mid-market team ? ?It?s more challenging but it?s also more rewarding. What we came so close to doing in 07 is pretty special stuff. One thing about the Dolans ? they?ve always allowed Mark and me as leaders of this organization to do what we think is best for this team.? [He hints here at an organizational issue, i.e., the manager as somewhat co-equal to the GM.]
• Hasn?t given much thought to what?s next. Concerned about ?finishing this thing off the right way.?
• ?As a manager, you have to work off the players you have. That dictates how you manage. It?s my job to work off that and win as many games as possible.?
• ?I was here in the beginning, I understand really rebuilding, starting from scratch. This is not that situation here in Cleveland. You need to understand that, fans need to understand that. You have a solid organization, a solid minor league system. You have a process that works, here in this market. So they?re going to be fine. You have to work off the market, the economy, what you?re able to do here. You have some young, talented baseball players that are learning every day."
• "It's been a long run here, I guess as managers go. I've got a great deal of respect for the city of Cleveland and Tribe fans all over the place, and I'm a big believer in wearing the uniform with pride."

Let's Go Tribe! - A Blog About Our Terrible Cleveland Indians

 

[NFBuck]

From what I gather this is what happened in Cleveland.
the brass trade away all of the good players and then fire the manager, is that right?

That's a simplistic way to view things. The trades went down after Wedge's bumbling had them out of contention by the AS break. They traded away the players they knew either weren't going to resign (Sabathia) or were more valuable in restocking the farm system than being part of a major rebuild (Vmart, Lee).

Sabathia was never coming back and right now they clearly got the better of the trade...Sabathia skipped town and the Tribe got back two future starters (LaPorta and Brantley) who have shown a lot of promise this year.

They probably didn't get back as much as you'd like for the other two, but it was an obviously a deflated market and they gained little vs. the risk if they held onto two guys who they wouldn't resign after next year anyway.

The VMart trade netted a guy who just pitched brilliantly tonight and at worst sures up the middle relief (a major need) or at best is a solid #3/4 starter. The other two, Hagadone has a very high ceiling with some injury history and Price who could be a very good P at the ML level. Both are a couple of years off.

Lee netted Carrasco who may be a part of the rotation next year. has very good stuff, just needs to harness it. Radinsky had him pitching very well in C-bus, and is rumored to be coming on as P coach, so that may get him going. Donald is probably a future utility infielder and Marson should be a serviceable backup/platoon C. Knapp was supposedly the catch...he just needs to get/stay healthy.

Bottom line, it's gonna be 2-3 years before we know how those trades ultimately worked out.

 

[buckeyemania11]

Lee netted Carrasco who may be a part of the rotation next year. has very good stuff, just needs to harness it. Radinsky had him pitching very well in C-bus, and is rumored to be coming on as P coach, so that may get him going. Donald is probably a future utility infielder and Marson should be a serviceable backup/platoon C. Knapp was supposedly the catch...he just needs to get/stay healthy.

I think shapiro [censored] the bed on the Lee trade

Knapp is injury prone

a backup catcher and a utility infielder?

Carrassco is a questionable prospect

I could be wrong and it may work out, who knows though

 

[NFBuck]

I think shapiro [censored] the bed on the Lee trade

Knapp is injury prone

a backup catcher and a utility infielder?

Carrassco is a questionable prospect

I could be wrong and it may work out, who knows though

That's the key. It's gonna take time. I'm not thrilled with the trade either...never was. But I understand why it was made. If Carrasco can get his stuff together and Knapp stays healthy, it was a good deal. Knapp, health issues aside, is a top prospect. We'll see if that happens.

 

[3074326]

Was talking sports with a dude in the weight room tonight. He asked me what I thought of Eric Wedge getting fired. I said "It was a good day for Indians baseball."

He said it was a mistake.

wtf

There is at least one Wedge supporter. I don't get it.

 

[tsteele316]

I think shapiro [censored] the bed on the Lee trade

Knapp is injury prone

a backup catcher and a utility infielder?

Carrassco is a questionable prospect

I could be wrong and it may work out, who knows though

cleveland was ordered to dump salary, so shapiro traded the only assets he could. teams knew that, which is why he got less in return than what everyone thought he should. overall, the value was mediocre, but given the extenuating circumstances, not that bad.

 

[Fungo Squiggly]

eh they could do worse than Grover IMO

just as long as they dont bring in Showalter, whoever they bring in will likely be an upgrade over Wedge, well this is the Indians though so we cant discount them doing something stupid

 

[NFBuck]

Cedric The Entertainer?