NBA Finals - Celtics vs. Lakers

[CCI]

What happens if the Celts have the men to guard those two?

5 on 5 B-Ball

Thursday hurry up

 

[OSUsushichic]

Red Sox fans are chanting "Beat L.A." at Fenway tonight.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

Signs point to the Celtics IMO...

Homecourt...
3 stars vs 2 stars...
Bench...
Great Defense...
Everyone talking up the Lakers...
I think more athletic...
Vegas has Celts as 2.5 pt favorite...


The Lakers have the shooters and have Kobe and Gasol...I am not saying this is a sweep for the Celts or anything, just like the Celts more than the Lakers...

 

[OCBucksFan]

Signs point to the Celtics IMO...

Homecourt...
3 stars vs 2 stars...
Bench...
Great Defense...
Everyone talking up the Lakers...
I think more athletic...
Vegas has Celts as 2.5 pt favorite...


The Lakers have the shooters and have Kobe and Gasol...I am not saying this is a sweep for the Celts or anything, just like the Celts more than the Lakers...

As usual, I am going to disagree with just about everything here.

If Allen, Pierce and Garnett are "Stars" then I fail to see how Odom somehow isn't? Considering his numbers, he easily falls into that catagory.

The Bench is pretty even, I posted the numbers in another thread, the Lakers don't play too deep in their bench, but who they do play can score and keep the game going, hell, against SA our bench pretty much brought is back in game 5.

I know you don't think the Lakers have a defense, but they can d-up when they need to, they just have that trademark of a Phil Jackson coached team, they play down to their competition. Look at the teams they played in the playoffs, a sweep of the Nuggets, 6 games against Utah, a team that had lost 4 games total at home, and San Antonio, though somehow that seems to be considered to be nothing on here, which I can't figure out but W/E.

Everyone is talking up the Lakers? Really? Because from what I have read and seen, everyone seems to be on the other side of that coin. ESPN is about the only place I have seen talk up the Lakers, every other national media outlet is saying 9-2 in six games.

Going to have to disagree with the more athletic part too, the Lakers are a lot younger and can move up and down the court or play a half court game, this isn't the 2004 team, the average age is like 26, the average age of the Celtics is well over 30.

Can't argue Vegas, that one I will give you.

I don't know who will win, as I have said, I am trying to be somewhat objective, even though I am a Lakers fan, but you're making it sound like they are slow, don't know how to defend, and old. They are the western conference champs, they do have the MVP of the league, and they have done well through the playoffs, 15 games for the lakers to go through three rounds, 20 for the Celtics.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

As usual, I am going to disagree with just about everything here.

If Allen, Pierce and Garnett are "Stars" then I fail to see how Odom somehow isn't? Considering his numbers, he easily falls into that catagory.

Are his number inflated from playing in the LA offense, more shot attempts, due to more possessions...Can he take over a game like anyone of Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Gasol can...Yes he is a solid player in LA in a great system for him, where he gets his points, his open looks, etc, but I am not putting him in the star category...Close maybe, but not a star...

The Bench is pretty even, I posted the numbers in another thread, the Lakers don't play too deep in their bench, but who they do play can score and keep the game going, hell, against SA our bench pretty much brought is back in game 5.

Never said your bench wasn't good...Just that I think that Boston has the better bench...Especially for this series as they can bring in Powe, Davis, and Brown to bang around where the Lakers on bring in Turiaf to play down low...Also Vujacic and Farmar are liabilities on D...So is Eddie House, but he doesn't see that much time...But Posey can come off and be a stopper off the bench...I just like the Celtics bench better in this one in terms of matchups...

I know you don't think the Lakers have a defense, but they can d-up when they need to, they just have that trademark of a Phil Jackson coached team, they play down to their competition. Look at the teams they played in the playoffs, a sweep of the Nuggets, 6 games against Utah, a team that had lost 4 games total at home, and San Antonio, though somehow that seems to be considered to be nothing on here, which I can't figure out but W/E.

I am talking matchups...Not past matchups...So the Celts looked like shit and the Lakers looked great...The thing is that the Celtics have the best D in the league...That is why I put Defense on there...

Everyone is talking up the Lakers? Really? Because from what I have read and seen, everyone seems to be on the other side of that coin. ESPN is about the only place I have seen talk up the Lakers, every other national media outlet is saying 9-2 in six games.

IMO from what I have read and heard, and even the talking heads have mentioned it that the Celtics are being looked down on in terms of the underdog in the series...Even the guy said the other day, and compared the Celtics to the Giants in the superbowl...

Going to have to disagree with the more athletic part too, the Lakers are a lot younger and can move up and down the court or play a half court game, this isn't the 2004 team, the average age is like 26, the average age of the Celtics is well over 30.

Rando more athletic than Fisher...
Kobe more athletic than Allen..
Pierce more athletic than Odom...
Garnett more athletic than Gasol...
Randmonovich over Perkins but they are different types of players...

Bench = celts IMO with Posey, House, Powe...Over Vujacic, Turiaf, and Walton...

Now this is not a glaring difference or anything like that, I just think that the Celtics are more athletic...If anything the age thing you throw in should be a good thing for the Celtics...Rando is probably the most athletic PG in the NBA...

I don't know who will win, as I have said, I am trying to be somewhat objective, even though I am a Lakers fan, but you're making it sound like they are slow, don't know how to defend, and old. They are the western conference champs, they do have the MVP of the league, and they have done well through the playoffs, 15 games for the lakers to go through three rounds, 20 for the Celtics.

You were missing my whole point, and you laker blinders came on...Keep in mind I have no pull for either team...I am in no way saying what you think I am saying...Obviously winning the west is no slouch and I think the Lakers are a very good team...I think the games will be close, and the series will be a seven game series...Didn't say they couldn't defend or that they were bad defensively, just that I think that the Celtics defend better...Never said they were slow, just that I think that Boston has the athletic edge...Never said they were old...Not once...

I just know when it comes down to playoff basketball, at times it can be the easy baskets that your team can score, or keep them from scoring, and when you have more mismatches on your side then that is beneficial...Not that is the only thing that wins games...Much like when LBJ was not going, that was basically it for the Cavs...

I understand the Lakers have Kobe and Gasol and think that they might be the best 1-2 punch in the league, and they will get their points and keep the Lakers within striking distance at all times, and will win them some games, and players like Odom, Fisher, Radmonovich will get their points as well, and the bench will play solid ball...I just think that matchups favor the Celtics, and was pointing out the advantages that I think the Celtics have...

 

[Jake]

Thee regular season isn't the burden of proof cause reg season is garbage when it comes to intensity.
The Cavs took it to them and not putting down Lebon but IMO Kobe is a better player and LA has a better team on D and offense than Cleveland or ATL.

So we can discuss this for many pages. Just like me, I put my vcash up

We can discuss things all day, but when you make assertions that contradict factual evidence it doesn't exactly substantiate your opinions. :p

LA may win the series, but the reasons you are giving as to why don't stand up to the numbers, be they playoffs or regular season.

 

[OCBucksFan]

Are his number inflated from playing in the LA offense, more shot attempts, due to more possessions...Can he take over a game like anyone of Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Kobe, Gasol can...Yes he is a solid player in LA in a great system for him, where he gets his points, his open looks, etc, but I am not putting him in the star category...Close maybe, but not a star...

Erm... Ok, so let me get this straight... Paul Pierce averages 19.6, and 5 Rebounds, where as Odom averages a double double at 14.2 Points and 10.6 Rebounds, yet he's just average? Seriously? Uhm, Ok, he's the only player of the "Big 3" on both teams that averages a double double per game...

Also, in regards to "inflated numbers" he shoots 52% and 27% from the three, compare that to Paul Pierce who shoots 46% and 39% from the three point line. The guy was a star on every other team, just because he's in the shadow of Kobe and Gasol doesn't take away from that.

Never said your bench wasn't good...Just that I think that Boston has the better bench...Especially for this series as they can bring in Powe, Davis, and Brown to bang around where the Lakers on bring in Turiaf to play down low...Also Vujacic and Farmar are liabilities on D...So is Eddie House, but he doesn't see that much time...But Posey can come off and be a stopper off the bench...I just like the Celtics bench better in this one in terms of matchups...

Vujacic actually does a pretty good job poking the ball away and I think Farmar may be our only player that's going to be able to keep up with Rondo, also, Farmar has had some key blocks and steals in the playoffs in addition to his scoring.

I am talking matchups...Not past matchups...So the Celts looked like shit and the Lakers looked great...The thing is that the Celtics have the best D in the league...That is why I put Defense on there...

And the Lakers have one of the best offenses in the league, so we'll see what happens, who knows, the Celtics could realistically come out, play like they did in the regular season and knock the Lakers into a full rebuilding mode with Kobe demanding a trade. I don't think that's going to happen, I think the age of the Celtics is what's happened to them in the post season, they have probably the best collection of talent in the league since the 2004 Lakers team, maybe even better, but just like that Lakers team, they also have years.

IMO from what I have read and heard, and even the talking heads have mentioned it that the Celtics are being looked down on in terms of the underdog in the series...Even the guy said the other day, and compared the Celtics to the Giants in the superbowl...

I have heard about 50/50, considering the celtics are favored by every bookie out there, I would take that for what it's worth. The Experts also said that the Lakers would probably lose to San Antonio and that when Detroit beat Boston in Boston that the Pistons were going to the finals.

Rando more athletic than Fisher...
Kobe more athletic than Allen..
Pierce more athletic than Odom...
Garnett more athletic than Gasol...
Randmonovich over Perkins but they are different types of players...

Rondo: Agree, he's younger and fast, but I think Fisher will be able to stay with him.
Kobe: Agree, that's kind of a given.
VladRad will be on PP.
Odom will be on KG.
Gasol will be on Perkins.

Bench = celts IMO with Posey, House, Powe...Over Vujacic, Turiaf, and Walton...

Now this is not a glaring difference or anything like that, I just think that the Celtics are more athletic...If anything the age thing you throw in should be a good thing for the Celtics...Rando is probably the most athletic PG in the NBA...

I ran the numbers on the bench, the 4 major players for the lakers scored 31 Points per game, vs the 6 Celtics that play regularly that had 34 points per game. Odds are Ariza will get more play in this series, so it will be interesting to see how the bench play goes. I think it's pretty even to be honest.

You were missing my whole point, and you laker blinders came on...Keep in mind I have no pull for either team...I am in no way saying what you think I am saying...Obviously winning the west is no slouch and I think the Lakers are a very good team...I think the games will be close, and the series will be a seven game series...Didn't say they couldn't defend or that they were bad defensively, just that I think that the Celtics defend better...Never said they were slow, just that I think that Boston has the athletic edge...Never said they were old...Not once...

Saying that a team who's average age is over 30 is more athletic than the Lakers should be taken as? That's where I took the old comment from, I don't think they have the athletic edge, I think they like the half court game and rely on the ability to go to the bench often, if the Lakers are smart they will exploit that and keep the game too close for the three to cycle bench time.

 

[BengalsAndBucks]

Never said your bench wasn't good...Just that I think that Boston has the better bench...Especially for this series as they can bring in Powe, Davis, and Brown to bang around where the Lakers on bring in Turiaf to play down low...Also Vujacic and Farmar are liabilities on D...So is Eddie House, but he doesn't see that much time...But Posey can come off and be a stopper off the bench...I just like the Celtics bench better in this one in terms of matchups...

I haven't disagreed with most of what you have said here, but I feel like this comment is just plain wrong. Vujacic will be fine on Ray Allen, because Vujacic is quick enough to hound him incessantly, which will prevent Allen from getting his catch and shoot points, while also frustrating the hell out of him. If Allen was really good with the ball in his hands I may agree that he could score on Vujacic, but he can't drive or create his own shot that well, except for his step-back. Also keep in mind, Boston has had a lot of trouble with dominant shot blockers in these playoffs, and Gasol and Odom could have a field day down there.


My one other big thought on the series is this: all season, Boston has looked great on D and subpar on offense. I was watching the Cleveland series and was amazed at their inability to create anything on offense at times. At the end of close games, all they could do was give it to KG and make him shoot fadeaway jumpers, or give it to Pierce and make him dribble for 18 seconds before throwing up a bad jumper. They have no one who can create an easy basket for them like Kobe does, and its an incredibly underrated ability for a team to know that they can score when they need to score late in the game. I guess that they have gotten this far while having to work so hard for every basket is a testament to how good the team is, but if I'm a Boston fan, I'm scared to death of anything remotely close in the 4th quarter.

 

[CCI]

IMHO I really don't think that home court doesn't matter in the finals just like Hockey, it is who wants it more and the experience factoe, for example the Red Wings had past Stanley Cup winners on the team. Thurs is coming real soon.

 

[OCBucksFan]

IMHO I really don't think that home court doesn't matter in the finals just like Hockey, it is who wants it more and the experience factoe, for example the Red Wings had past Stanley Cup winners on the team. Thurs is coming real soon.

These two teams have amazing home records in the playoffs, I think it may matter, but I can't predict the future, if I could I would be richer than Trump and Vricher than BB73.

 

[crazybuckfan40]

Erm... Ok, so let me get this straight... Paul Pierce averages 19.6, and 5 Rebounds, where as Odom averages a double double at 14.2 Points and 10.6 Rebounds, yet he's just average? Seriously? Uhm, Ok, he's the only player of the "Big 3" on both teams that averages a double double per game...

Also, in regards to "inflated numbers" he shoots 52% and 27% from the three, compare that to Paul Pierce who shoots 46% and 39% from the three point line. The guy was a star on every other team, just because he's in the shadow of Kobe and Gasol doesn't take away from that.

We will just agree to disagree here...He is a very solid player, just not a star IMO...He is not the type of player that will take over a game...

Vujacic actually does a pretty good job poking the ball away and I think Farmar may be our only player that's going to be able to keep up with Rondo, also, Farmar has had some key blocks and steals in the playoffs in addition to his scoring.

Poking and staying in front of guys are two different things...We will see here tho...I just think that Celtics bench is better defensively as they bring Posey off the bench, and Farmar and Vujacic aren't really stoppers...

And the Lakers have one of the best offenses in the league, so we'll see what happens, who knows, the Celtics could realistically come out, play like they did in the regular season and knock the Lakers into a full rebuilding mode with Kobe demanding a trade. I don't think that's going to happen, I think the age of the Celtics is what's happened to them in the post season, they have probably the best collection of talent in the league since the 2004 Lakers team, maybe even better, but just like that Lakers team, they also have years.

I don't think that is going to happen either...I think the Celtics will be just fine...They played their best basketball in the playoffs in their 19-20th games against a very good Detroit team...I think they will have enough for 7 more games...

I have heard about 50/50, considering the celtics are favored by every bookie out there, I would take that for what it's worth. The Experts also said that the Lakers would probably lose to San Antonio and that when Detroit beat Boston in Boston that the Pistons were going to the finals.

Just a perception I guess...Don't really watch a ton of sports shows...

Rondo: Agree, he's younger and fast, but I think Fisher will be able to stay with him.
Kobe: Agree, that's kind of a given.
VladRad will be on PP.
Odom will be on KG.
Gasol will be on Perkins.

So still even if you change the matchups the celtics are more athletic, and then when you get to thinking about switchig due to screens, and other situations, and I think the Celtics are just the more athletic team...Can you make an argument against it?

I ran the numbers on the bench, the 4 major players for the lakers scored 31 Points per game, vs the 6 Celtics that play regularly that had 34 points per game. Odds are Ariza will get more play in this series, so it will be interesting to see how the bench play goes. I think it's pretty even to be honest.

Once again the numbers should be higher for a team that runs more...They are not...

Saying that a team who's average age is over 30 is more athletic than the Lakers should be taken as? That's where I took the old comment from, I don't think they have the athletic edge, I think they like the half court game and rely on the ability to go to the bench often, if the Lakers are smart they will exploit that and keep the game too close for the three to cycle bench time.

I don't see any problem with saying that a team with older guys can be more athletic than a younger team...Think that Sam I am is 39 and on a team of 12 players inflates the number some...But Garnett is still very athletic, athletic enough to stay in front of LBJ some, win defensive player of the year...Pierce is very athletic at the SF position...Rando is the most athletic PG in the game IMO...Perkins is also athletic for a big man...

Just because they are a half court team doesn't mean they aren't athletic...

I haven't disagreed with most of what you have said here, but I feel like this comment is just plain wrong. Vujacic will be fine on Ray Allen, because Vujacic is quick enough to hound him incessantly, which will prevent Allen from getting his catch and shoot points, while also frustrating the hell out of him. If Allen was really good with the ball in his hands I may agree that he could score on Vujacic, but he can't drive or create his own shot that well, except for his step-back. Also keep in mind, Boston has had a lot of trouble with dominant shot blockers in these playoffs, and Gasol and Odom could have a field day down there.

We shall see here...I agree that Kobe will shut down Allen, but don't think that Vujacic will slow him down much...I could be wrong...

My one other big thought on the series is this: all season, Boston has looked great on D and subpar on offense. I was watching the Cleveland series and was amazed at their inability to create anything on offense at times. At the end of close games, all they could do was give it to KG and make him shoot fadeaway jumpers, or give it to Pierce and make him dribble for 18 seconds before throwing up a bad jumper. They have no one who can create an easy basket for them like Kobe does, and its an incredibly underrated ability for a team to know that they can score when they need to score late in the game. I guess that they have gotten this far while having to work so hard for every basket is a testament to how good the team is, but if I'm a Boston fan, I'm scared to death of anything remotely close in the 4th quarter.

Keep in mind that against Cleveland LBJ was on their creator...Who is going to be on Pierce this series...Radmonovich? Kobe?

Pierce will have a field day with the first and if Kobe is on him, then that leaves who to guard Allen? If Odom is on him, then Garnett has a mismatch in the post against Radmonovich...

Like I said earlier it is best for a team when they know they can get an easy bucket...Thus why the mismatches that Boston has will help that...

KG can get a bucket when they get him the ball where he needs it and Pierce can score on anyone in the league...You did see his 39 pt performance in the biggest game of the season for them right? Against LBJ...

The key for Boston at times is Rando and not settling for jumpers and creating for the big 3, and if he is settling he needs to hit the shots, and Perkins had a big game in the Detroit series...

 

[OCBucksFan]

CBF40, I love your input, I don't agree with it most of the time, but it is very appreciated. I realize you don't have a "favorite team" in these playoffs, but I do think you are biased to the eastern conference, just as I was last year, otherwise, I think we just agree to disagree and I can't wait for the games to start tomorrow :)

 

[BengalsAndBucks]

KG can get a bucket when they get him the ball where he needs it and Pierce can score on anyone in the league...You did see his 39 pt performance in the biggest game of the season for them right? Against LBJ...

Yeah I saw that game, and it was impressive, but he wont hit a lot of those shots consistently, and his team absolutely needed every one of those points. LBJ isn't the defender Kobe is, and if Pierce gets that hot then Phil will switch Kobe on him and dare Allen to beat us, which he could do if he is on fire, but he only really had 2 good games in the last series, and I don't know if he can be their primary scorer.

 

[OSUsushichic]

Passions stir anew as Celtics, Lakers face off for title

By Bob Hohler, Globe Staff | June 5, 2008

All he wanted was a hamburger. An NBA champion, a towel-waving supporting star for the Boston Celtics in 1984 when they defeated the Los Angeles Lakers in the league finals for the eighth time in as many tries, M.L. Carr made the mistake weeks later of stopping at a popular LA burger joint.

Passions stir anew as Celtics, Lakers face off for title - The Boston Globe

 

[OSUsushichic]

Top 10 games in the rivalry (according to Bob Ryan):

Bob Ryan's Top 10 games from the Celtics-Lakers rivalry - Boston.com