OFFICIAL: Biblical/Theology Discussion thread

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

That's a nice-sounding explanation, but I think that little 3-part formulation (God/infinite/good) is too simplistic to be the definitive word on the subject. I don't see how God's infinite nature would preclude the absence of good at all (are you including "omnipotent" within "infinite")--and where does man and his free will fit into the equation?

Yes, I'm including omnipotent with in the definition. Man's free will is not an issue for me because I believe in chaos theory and multiple universes.

But, I don't see how you can hold an all good, infinite God (who is said to be "everywhere" in the universe) can preclude the absence of Good. If there is a place that God is not, then God is not infinite. If there is a place that God is, that does not contain Good, then God is not all Good. What am I missing?

Edit: Or, are you saying, much the same as I have said before, capability does not require action? That is to say, God may be capable of being everywhere does not command that he actually BE everywhere.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Thanks for you honesty.

This is yet another verfication of a hypothesis on which I have been working. My experience is very much like yours up until the teenage years. Was Catholic simply because my parents were Catholic (actually mother was Methodist until she married my father), which means I was Catholic because some ancestor of mine accepted it. Hence, I also began my exploration and while it lead me to reject Catholicism, I went the opposite direction in that I found all the answers through a literal interpretation of the Scriptures.

I've always wondered why the two different paths. Recently as I've been listening to the life stories of those who have done the seeking we have done, I have come to realize belief/non-belief of Christ's ressurection is the dividing line. In other words, I don't know of anyone who really believed in the resurrection to stop believing in it.

'

Let me ask you this... (and I may have to bail, so I will have to get back in to this discussion later) ... What about the resurrection ..... what makes you honestly believe it? I mean, is it as simple an answer as "Faith" or is there something which you have put through the rational thinking part of your brain, and found it met whatever tests you require of a thought to be held as "true"?

 

[buckeyegrad]

If God is infinite, Good cannot be absent. Evil must therefore be something other than the absence of Good. Or... God isn't infinte. Frankly, I can live with either result, though I must confess, I try to explain things while keeping God Infinite. If Good and Evil have to disappear, so be it.

Well, it depends on what is good. You are making the assumption here that good is God (which is quite different than saying God is good), to which I would completely disagree. In my conception of God, good, and evil, good is defined as God's Will. So while God is something beyond infinity (i.e. outside of existence), individual actions within His creation can be absent of His Will.

 

[BayBuck]

Yes, I'm including omnipotent with in the definition. Man's free will is not an issue for me because I believe in chaos theory and multiple universes.

But, I don't see how you can hold an all good, infinite God (who is said to be "everywhere" in the universe) can preclude the absence of Good. If there is a place that God is not, then God is not infinite. If there is a place that God is, that does not contain Good, then God is not all Good. What am I missing?

The possibility that evil actually does exist, and not merely as the absence of good: I for one believe God is within me, as in all things, and yet I have often defiled his presence with my weakness in the face of evil's temptations. That's sin, and that's why I need forgiveness. I have no problem with you trying to formulate a tidy answer to the Problem of Evil for yourself, but I just don't believe the ultimate truths in life can whittled down to such simple tautologies.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Well, it depends on what is good. You are making the assumption here that good is God (which is quite different than saying God is good). In my conception of God, good, and evil, good is defined as God's Will. So while God is something beyond infinity (i.e. outside of existence), individual actions within His creation can be absent of His Will.

If Good is God's will, then Good may only come in to existence upon God's willing it to be so... (or, in other words, When god "thinks" or "does" it is "good" automatically) There is no Good, then, without God. And the statements Good is God and God is Good become the exact same thing, as far as I can tell.

I suppose you're saying it more like this.. BKB is not God, but is capable of Good. Thus, since BKB is not God and can do Good, Good can exist without God.

I guess I look at God as much more intrusive than that. God is everything you see, feel, hear, touch... He is all that you know and don't know. God is everything and Nothing. God is the universe and everything in it, everywhere. Or, simply: God is. (Which is the same thing as saying "God is not"). When I talk of an infinite God, I mean an infinte God in infinite respects... I recognize, however, that this holding appears to not allow for things such as man's free will... evil.. etc... But, again, one must keep in mind I do not believe in such things (ie Evil) there simply is.

Or the shorter version: there is nothing but for God.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

The possibility that evil actually does exist, and not merely as the absence of good: I for one believe God is within me, as in all things, and yet I have often defiled his presence with my weakness in the face of evil's temptations. That's sin, and that's why I need forgiveness. I have no problem with you trying to formulate a tidy answer to the Problem of Evil for yourself, but I just don't believe the ultimate truths in life can whittled down to such simple tautologies.

So, you wouldn't buy that a paradox is really nothing more than an answer, right?

 

[buckeyegrad]

'

Let me ask you this... (and I may have to bail, so I will have to get back in to this discussion later) ... What about the resurrection ..... what makes you honestly believe it? I mean, is it as simple an answer as "Faith" or is there something which you have put through the rational thinking part of your brain, and found it met whatever tests you require of a thought to be held as "true"?

I can find no reason to doubt Paul's account that Jesus appeared to over 500 witnesses after his death, who testified to his resurrection (1 Cor. 15:5-8). Furthermore, if you look at the Jewish writings regarding the Messiah, Jesus fits all of them, including his claim of divinity and his resurrection. These writing not only include the Old Testament, but the writings of midrash that discuss the two natures of the Messiah (ben Yoseph and ben David). I look at history and millions upon millions of people from an overwhelming diversity of time periods and cultures who have come to accept his resurrection as more than just "majic". There has to be something to the story for it to have this profound of an effect. And finally, the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the resurrection to me personally on a daily basis.

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I can find no reason to doubt Paul's account that Jesus appeared to over 500 witnesses after his death, who testified to his resurrection (1 Cor. 15:5-8). Furthermore, if you look at the Jewish writings regarding the Messiah, Jesus fits all of them, including his claim of divinity and his resurrection. These writing not only include the Old Testament, but the writings of midrash that discuss the two natures of the Messiah (ben Yoseph and ben David). I look at history and millions upon millions of people from an overwhelming diversity of time periods and cultures who have come to accept his resurrection as more than just "majic". There has to be something to the story for it to have this profound of an effect. And finally, the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the resurrection to me personally on a daily basis.

That's cool. I can appreciate that. But, I was never able to move past the notion that I could easily get together with 12 of my buddies and make it appear that my life was the fulfilment of OT prophesy.

Ironically (in comparison to what I said above about God being everywhere), I think, I don't trust people... I'll have to think about that for a bit to resolve the problem with havig God be everywhere and not trusting people.

 

[buckeyegrad]

If Good is God's will, then Good may only come in to existence upon God's willing it to be so... (or, in other words, When god "thinks" or "does" it is "good" automatically) There is no Good, then, without God. And the statements Good is God and God is Good become the exact same thing, as far as I can tell.

I agree with what you are saying except the conclusion. Simply because what God wills is by definition good, does not mean we can deduce "good is God", unless you are saying there is nothing more to God than His Will.

I suppose you're saying it more like this.. BKB is not God, but is capable of Good. Thus, since BKB is not God and can do Good, Good can exist without God.

This is not what I am saying since I reject your first premise that one is capable of good by their own merits. God is the only source of good, it cannot arise independent of Him. Man can only do what is good when he does what is God's Will. The two cannot be separate of each other.

I guess I look at God as much more intrusive than that. God is everything you see, feel, hear, touch... He is all that you know and don't know. God is everything and Nothing. God is the universe and everything in it, everywhere. Or, simply: God is. (Which is the same thing as saying "God is not"). When I talk of an infinite God, I mean an infinte God in infinite respects... I recognize, however, that this holding appears to not allow for things such as man's free will... evil.. etc... But, again, one must keep in mind I do not believe in such things (ie Evil) there simply is.

We definitely disagree here. I have always contended that God is beyond infinite, which is to say He is beyond everything. Rather than simply being everything we see, feel, hear, touch, know, don't know; He is the creator of them. They being a creation of His means He is not infinite, rather He is beyond it since He created the infinite.

 

[buckeyegrad]

That's cool. I can appreciate that. But, I was never able to move past the notion that I could easily get together with 12 of my buddies and make it appear that my life was the fulfilment of OT prophesy.

Except you fail the very first test, you're not Jewish.

 

[Jagdaddy]

I look at history and millions upon millions of people from an overwhelming diversity of time periods and cultures who have come to accept his resurrection as more than just "majic". There has to be something to the story for it to have this profound of an effect.

Which is all well and good, but would seem equally applicable to the "something" represented by Mohammed and Islam or the Buddha and Buddhism.

 

[lvbuckeye]

That's cool. I can appreciate that. But, I was never able to move past the notion that I could easily get together with 12 of my buddies and make it appear that my life was the fulfilment of OT prophesy.

hmm... no comment.

Ironically (in comparison to what I said above about God being everywhere), I think, I don't trust people... I'll have to think about that for a bit to resolve the problem with havig God be everywhere and not trusting people.

perhaps the reason is that people are not inherently good. we are all liars and desperately wicked at heart. we just don't like to admit it.

 

[jwinslow]

That's cool. I can appreciate that. But, I was never able to move past the notion that I could easily get together with 12 of my buddies and make it appear that my life was the fulfilment of OT prophesy.

Would you and many of your buddies die for that cause?

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Would you and many of your buddies die for that cause?

Also manage to transport yourself back 2000 years to the exact day Christ entered Jerusalem and take over for him because the timeframe matters too?
Establish bloodline to King David, maybe?

BKB, how much of those prophecies have you actually studied to be sure you get all the details right even if you could?

 

[lvbuckeye]

Would you and many of your buddies die for that cause?

a better question is which of the numerous specific prophecies would he be able to fake?

seed of a woman?
virgin birth?
preceded by a forerunner?
birth in Bethlehem?
descendant of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David?
from the Tribe of Judah?
heir to the throne of David?
time of birth?
slaughter of children?
flight to Egypt?
triumphant entry on a donkey?
entry through the Golden Gate?
betrayal by a friend for 30 pieces of silver?
money returned and given to the potter's field?
Judas' position replaced?
soldiers gambling for his clothing?
executed with real criminals?
pierced hands and feet?
agonized in thirst?
given gall and vinegar?
no bones broken?
side pierced?
forsaken by God?
buried with rich?
abandoned by followers?
time of death?
resurrection?
others resurrected?

all of those things were prophesied in the Old Testament. all fulfilled by Jesus Christ.