Split Thread: End Times Discussion

[lvbuckeye]

i see what you are saying now.

well.. me and you will not come to an agreement im sure.. but the way i look at that is this..

when i see things such as adam was tricked by a talking snake, its something more than a 'talking snake'

absolutely. ancient Hebrew doesn't have any vowels. the consonants that form the word for serpent also form the word for "Shining." we read later in the Bible that Lucifer transforms himself into an angel of light in order to deceive creation.

when noah built the ark at the age of 200 or whatever it was, i don't think noah really was 200 years old.

but only because of what you observe in the world today. i'm inclined to believe that Noah really WAS that old for a couple of reasons. 1) the Bible says that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years. despite the extreme longevities of the predeluvian people, no one lived a thousand years. they all died in the 'day' that they lived. 2) after the flood, life expectancy dropped considerably. in the 400 years or so from Noah to Abram, it dropped from several hundred to 120. and down to 70 by King David.

and this is where me and you obviously differ in our own interpetations.. and as for the 'by one man, sin entered the world' and has a consequence that brought death into the world. i would look at that, as more of a spirtual death.. the death of the soul.

ALL death is death of the soul. quite simply put, the soul is the life of the body. Genesis says that God breathed life into the clay and it became a living soul. no breathe = no soul.

i really think modern science has proved the bible, between RNA and proteins forming in clay, and the theory of realitivity alongside of the 6-day creation story is enough to make my blood run cold. this may be in part because i'm looking for it.

it also may be because it's the truth.

either theres some truth to the bible, or some dude 3 to 4,000 years ago had an incredibly lucky guess.

but like i said in an earlier post, ignorance is bliss, and once the first man induldged in knoweldge, learned the diffrence between right and wrong, and still choose wrong.. thats where 'death entered the world' and its more of a spirtual death than it is a physical death. i dont think its possible for a man to live thousands of years pre-sin because, logically, it's not possible. our bodies break down naturally over time.

what about eternal life? do you believe in the immortality of the spirit?

looking at Christs death on the cross, and him conquering death (and in effect, sin) he didn't stay alive physically, but he conquered death & sin spirtually.

he physically died, but conquered the grave and rose again three days later.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. -- Philippians 2:5-11

 

[Bleed S & G]

absolutely. ancient Hebrew doesn't have any vowels. the consonants that form the word for serpent also form the word for "Shining." we read later in the Bible that Lucifer transforms himself into an angel of light in order to deceive creation.

Right, lucifer was the 'morning star' most beatiful of all the angels, etc. But if what you're implying is true and it infact is a mistranslation.. why was he called the 'koyest of all the animals' and told 'he would have to crawl on his belly' if the story was not about a snake? dosen't make any sense. im sure if i were to refresh myself on the story i could use better examples to state the case its clear that its depicted as a 'snake' and couldn't be used in another way.

i think its interesting that the serpent was banished to crawling.. satan is often depicted as a dragon, but if you add feet to a snake..

but only because of what you observe in the world today. i'm inclined to believe that Noah really WAS that old for a couple of reasons. 1) the Bible says that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years. despite the extreme longevities of the predeluvian people, no one lived a thousand years. they all died in the 'day' that they lived. 2) after the flood, life expectancy dropped considerably. in the 400 years or so from Noah to Abram, it dropped from several hundred to 120. and down to 70 by King David.

I've seen something on this before.. can you provide sound proof for the extended longevities of the predeluvian people? also seen things that people we're 15 feet tall 4,000 years ago.. and on the history channel they made a discovery of a hobbit human race.

ALL death is death of the soul. quite simply put, the soul is the life of the body. Genesis says that God breathed life into the clay and it became a living soul. no breathe = no soul.

i don't think soul is life of the body, i think this is what seperates us from the animals.. a "heart".. a conscious.

it also may be because it's the truth.

tend to agree

what about eternal life? do you believe in the immortality of the spirit?

yes and no. while i was raised beliving in a heaven or hell, i dont see any of it in scripture, at least the way i portray it. my views on this change almost weekly it seems, currently my view seems to be more along the lines of reincarnation and hell is a place to pay back our karmatic debt to God, not a permant place. so i guess yes, i do believe the spirit lives on.. worst case scenario, it's risen at judgment day and its going to be a boring ride for the next thousand or so years.

he physically died, but conquered the grave and rose again three days later.

he physically died, but his spirit descended into the earth for 3 days, and conquered death and sin, not the physical body.

 

[Bleed S & G]

back to the end times..

not to get all crazy and the 'sky is falling' again buuutttt i did find this interesting..

The December 26, 2004 earthquake of magnitude 9.3 in the Indian Ocean, hit with the force of five million atomic bombs. Normally an earthquake shakes for 30 seconds, but this shook the earth for ten minutes, rupturing the earth for 780 miles (1300 km), raised the surface of the whole earth 0.4 inches (1 cm), and caused the earth to tilt one inch (2.54 cm) on its axis and spin three microseconds faster. 221,000 people were killed and five million were left homeless.

i wonder if the quake is responsible for any of the "climate change" we see.. causing the earth to spin faster and raising the surface of the whole earth must have some impact on the planet.

got an email from facebook this morning about some "lunar party" so i clicked the link..

A total eclipse of the Moon occurs during the early morning of Tuesday, August 28, 2007. The event is widely visible
from the United States and Canada as well as South America, the Pacific Ocean, western Asia and Australia. During a total lunar eclipse, the Moon's disk can take on a dramatically colorful appearance from bright orange to blood red to dark brown and (rarely) very dark gray.

kind of interesting who it's not visible to: Russia, China, the ME, and Europe..
EDIT: ^^ nevermind, it's not visible to africa too

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

are we halfway through seal 6? or is the earthquake going to be the "big one" many are predicting Cali will have very soon? Or am i fucking crazy? i think its the latter.

 

[lvbuckeye]

Right, lucifer was the 'morning star' most beatiful of all the angels, etc. But if what you're implying is true and it infact is a mistranslation.. why was he called the 'koyest of all the animals' and told 'he would have to crawl on his belly' if the story was not about a snake? dosen't make any sense. im sure if i were to refresh myself on the story i could use better examples to state the case its clear that its depicted as a 'snake' and couldn't be used in another way.

my text reads: "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made." it doesn't say that the serpent was a beast. it says he was more subtle than any beast.

i think its interesting that the serpent was banished to crawling.. satan is often depicted as a dragon, but if you add feet to a snake..

I've seen something on this before.. can you provide sound proof for the extended longevities of the predeluvian people? also seen things that people we're 15 feet tall 4,000 years ago.. and on the history channel they made a discovery of a hobbit human race.

solid proof? no. giants? the Bible says so...

i don't think soul is life of the body, i think this is what seperates us from the animals.. a "heart".. a conscious.

that's what i would consider to be the spirit... i dunno...

tend to agree


yes and no. while i was raised beliving in a heaven or hell, i dont see any of it in scripture, at least the way i portray it. my views on this change almost weekly it seems, currently my view seems to be more along the lines of reincarnation and hell is a place to pay back our karmatic debt to God, not a permant place. so i guess yes, i do believe the spirit lives on.. worst case scenario, it's risen at judgment day and its going to be a boring ride for the next thousand or so years.

lol... what i'm getting at is that i don't believe that you burn in hell for all eternity... you cease to exist. the punishment IS eternal, in that it's permanent, but it's not malevolent. despite how badly we screw up, God still loves us enough to sacrifice His only begotten Son for us, remember?

he physically died, but his spirit descended into the earth for 3 days, and conquered death and sin, not the physical body.

He physically rose from the grave three days later. that was the only sign that Jesus gave as proof that He was who He said He was. Jesus said that the sign He would give was the sign of Jonah. it occurs in Matthew 12, Luke 11, and John 21.

 

[strohs]

I don't know about all of this end of the world prophecy stuff, but I do know that if the Buckeyes lose to YSU on Saturday, then its officially the beginning of the end

 

[muffler dragon]

actually, i equate the Genesis account to be paramount to the whole of Scripture. let's put it this way:

"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will continue to fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the Son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."
- R. Bozarth 1979: 30, ?The Meaning of Evolution? American Atheist Magazine

lv:

Is this really how you feel about Genesis and evolution? Seems like quite a claim to stake when Judaism doesn't even hold to a literal interpretation of the beginning of Genesis.

 

[muffler dragon]

As a Christian I find that statement to be false, with a false predicate that determines the outcome. FWIW, here is my denomination's take:

Beliefs about the Bible
Yes to authority, No to inerrancy
Presbyterians...

Oh, crap! You're a Presbyter?!!! There went you opinion.

 

[muffler dragon]

absolutely. ancient Hebrew doesn't have any vowels. the consonants that form the word for serpent also form the word for "Shining." we read later in the Bible that Lucifer transforms himself into an angel of light in order to deceive creation.

Just for fun: who is Lucifer? He doesn't exist in the Jewish Bible.

 

[muffler dragon]

Right, lucifer was the 'morning star' most beatiful of all the angels, etc.

Where's that?

 

[muffler dragon]

Now that I've had a little bit of personal levity in this thread, I thought I would ask if anyone is interested in knowing how Daniel 9 plays out according to Jewish tradition?

From an acquaintance of mine:

Daniel was not a prophet, FYI. And he spoke of two "anointed ones" (messiahs).

There are many reasons we know that Daniel 9 isn?t about Jsus. For one, the timing is off. Jews use a lunar / solar calendar if you use it the timing doesn?t work (even using the Christian starting point) for Jsus to have fulfilled the vision.

Daniel 9 says (KJV) ?from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of The Messiah, The Prince shall be seven weeks and three score and two weeks.?

When did this decree ?go forth? happen? It happened WAY too early to fit Jsus. Try 538 BCE when King Cyrus (Ezra in 1:1-4 and Ezra 5:13-17) gave the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Then in 517 BCE Darius gave another decree to rebuild the temple (recorded in Ezra 6:6-12).

All of these dates are WAY too early for the 70 weeks to fit the Jsus idea, so Christians pick a much later date. So they pick Artaxerxes' decree in 445 BCE (Nehemiah 2:5-7).

483 years from the year 445 BCE would put us at 37 CE which (per Christians) is still wrong to fit Jsus.

So, no ? Daniel 9 is NOT a prophecy about Jsus.

There are actually two anointed ones spoken of. The first was Cyrus (the King) who decreed the rebuilding of Jersualem.

The second messiah (anointed one) was probably the high priest Alexander Yannai. Yannai came to power just at the end of the real sixty-two week period in 103 BCE and was the last of the important Hasmonean leaders. Yannai was known as a violent and bloody ruler. In one Temple revolt over 6000 people were killed due to his direct actions. A real nasty case and he was truly "cut off" (kareit) from the Jewish people and G-d.

The phrase "after sixty-two weeks" indicates the time frame during which the "anointed one shall be cut off," that is, suffer karet, "excision." There is no doubt that this happened with Yannai.

Josephus says that Yannai (a Sadduccee) fought against the Pharisees for six years, "and . . . slew no fewer than fifty thousand of them" (Jewish Antiquities XIII. 13. 5. [373]). He also "ordered some eight hundred of the Jews to be crucified, and slaughtered their children and wives before the eyes of the still living wretches" (Jewish Antiquities XIII. 14. 2. [380]). He deserved karet, and he got it.

BTW, if Christians knew Hebrew they would NEVER associated the ?cut off? messiah with Jsus. The word used, karet means SPIRITUALLY cut off, not killed. So unless you think Jsus was a bad man deserving to be spritiually cut off, you don?t want to apply Daniel 9 to him.

 

[Gatorubet]

Oh, crap! You're a Presbyter?!!! There went your opinion.

As a Presbyterian, I knew you were going to say that before you did.

 

[muffler dragon]

As a Presbyterian, I knew you were going to say that before you did.

I'm well aware of the foresight of the Presbyter.