• Follow us on Twitter @buckeyeplanet and @bp_recruiting, like us on Facebook! Enjoy a post or article, recommend it to others! BP is only as strong as its community, and we only promote by word of mouth, so share away!
  • Consider registering! Fewer and higher quality ads, no emails you don't want, access to all the forums, download game torrents, private messages, polls, Sportsbook, etc. Even if you just want to lurk, there are a lot of good reasons to register!

Split Thread: End Times Discussion

MaxBuck;910565; said:
The reason I don't answer is that your questions are so transparent. But I'll answer now: I believe that God intends us to observe the Ten Commandments.

they should be transparent. the implications are rather obvious.

Also, you seem to equate "fable" with "falsehood." Nothing could be further from the truth.
actually, i equate the Genesis account to be paramount to the whole of Scripture. let's put it this way:

"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will continue to fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the Son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."
- R. Bozarth 1979: 30, ?The Meaning of Evolution? American Atheist Magazine


You don't deny that you see some of the Bible as figurative. So the only question remains -- do you think YOU know what parts are and I do not? Seems like that is your message, but I do not want to misrepresent your position.
despite what you think, i do not claim any esoteric knowledge of the Scriptures. what i DO claim is that i've studied it enough to know that you create a whole lot of complications for yourself when you start to interpret it according to your personal liking... like those complications inherent in the fact that the New Testament refers to creation six times... which would mean that the NT is part of the fable as well. you can't claim to only believe part of the Word. it doesn't work that way.

BKB, since you admittedly serve a god of your own devising, how about you respect those around you by not popping in here to take potshots?
kthxbye.
 
Upvote 0
lvbuckeye;910912; said:
actually, i equate the Genesis account to be paramount to the whole of Scripture. let's put it this way:

"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will continue to fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the Son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing."
- R. Bozarth 1979: 30, ?The Meaning of Evolution? American Atheist Magazine

As a Christian I find that statement to be false, with a false predicate that determines the outcome. FWIW, here is my denomination's take:

Beliefs about the Bible
Yes to authority, No to inerrancy
Presbyterians have always had a very strong doctrine of Biblical authority, but historically most have shied away from calling that doctrine inerrancy. Inerrancy is a word that points to complete factual accuracy. It is easy to assume this must be the right word to describe Scripture since it is the Word of God and therefore must not have any mistakes in it. But this reasoning does not quite work, for a couple of reasons:
1. While you can apply the idea of inerrancy to a history quiz, it is hard to see how to apply it to a work of art. An inerrant quiz paper is one in which all the answers are factually accurate.
But what would it mean to apply the term inerrancy to a work of art like American Gothic? What do you think when you look at that painting? Perhaps it is "How determined farmers are, in the midst of life's adversities!" But it is not "Ah, now I know what this particular couple looked like." We recognize that a great work of art often "says something" that has little to do with an exact reproduction of "the facts." It would miss the point to argue for the inerrancy of a masterpiece.
The poems, songs, parables and sagas of the Bible are literary masterpieces. For example, the Parable of the Good Samaritan: Jesus made up this brief yet poignant story to answer the objection of the lawyer who asked about eternal life. Defending the inerrancy of this story misses the point. The point is to obey the authority of the story.
2. Believing in the inerrancy of Scripture commits us to the factual accuracy of individual texts, while believing in the authority of Scripture presses us to know the message of Scripture as a whole.
In order to be inerrant, the factuality of a statement has to be able to stand on its own: "The Battle of Gettysburg took place in 1863" is true or false on its own merits. Contrast this with Psalm 103:3 telling us that the Lord "heals all of your diseases." Or Jesus declaring that he "was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). Or the description of final judgment that tells us "all liars" will end up in the lake of burning sulfur (Revelation 21:8). If the term inerrancy can be applied to these statements, then they can stand on their own, and we can believe with confidence that they are the truth.
Does the Lord heal all of our diseases? Was Jesus sent only to the lost sheep of Israel? Will all liars be cast into the lake of fire? We may want to quibble at this point and say, "Well, you have to view those statements in their context in order to see what they really mean." If we say that, we have given up on the doctrine of inerrancy: we have conceded that these verses cannot stand on their own, with their plain meaning to be accepted as the truth.
The doctrine of authority, in contrast, focuses on the whole Bible, rather than particular texts. With regard to topics like healing or inclusiveness or final judgment, this doctrine prompts us to ask, "What are all the verses that talk about this? How do they fit together to form one cohesive Biblical teaching? And how do I follow that teaching and live it out in my life?"
 
Upvote 0
lvbuckeye;910912; said:
you can't claim to only believe part of the Word. it doesn't work that way.
Well, it evidently works for you, since you choose to refer to "stars" as "fallen angels" when that suits your purpose.

And what is up with quoting some nutjob atheist as a basis for your Scriptural interpretations? Wow. I guess I prefer to rely on 2000 years or so of Christian orthodoxy for my basis of faith.
 
Upvote 0
lvbuckeye;910978; said:
2,000 years of Christian orthodoxy is a literal six day creation, and you don't have any problems dismissing that!

1,850 years of Christian orthodoxy is a literal acceptance of slavery.

1,600 years of Christian orthodoxy is an earth that is the center of the universe, with the sun circling us.

As God gives us the ever increasing means to examine his creation, it is to me a slap at God and the gift of intellect he gave to continue to accept that which is not true. When you have kids, you do not tell them all literal truths, because they are not yet equipped emotionally and intellectually to handle the information until they have grown. I think it is like that with God and his children.
 
Upvote 0
MaxBuck;910986; said:
There, my friend, you are mistaken.
what did Jesus have to say about it? And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mark 10:5-6... and again in 13:9: For [in] those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

what about Paul? what did he have to say? Romans 1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:... and then again in 8:22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

and again in his second letter to Peter: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:4

[/i]what about John? And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Revelation 3:14... this is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ ordered John to write those seven letters to the seven churches...

yet you don't see a contradiction in believing in evolution?
 
Upvote 0
lvbuckeye;911031; said:
what did Jesus have to say about it? ... yet you don't see a contradiction in believing in evolution?
Nope, not a one. None of Jesus's comments you cited has anything whatever to do with evolution. I'll take it one more step -- nothing Jesus ever said as quoted in the Gospels had anything whatever to do with evolution. And nothing Paul and John said had anything to do with evolution.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
lvbuckeye;911703; said:
yeah... they ALL only mention CREATION.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5:12

so much for evolution...
LV, i really dont see how any of the stuff you've provided elimnates evolution, nor do i see evolution diminishing the importance of Christ
 
Upvote 0
collegehumor.a16fb507e9a0b91fe793d72a30c88bbf.jpg
 
Upvote 0
Bleed S & G;911711; said:
LV, i really dont see how any of the stuff you've provided elimnates evolution, nor do i see evolution diminishing the importance of Christ

i take what it says seriously and literally. of course Max will jump in about the prophetic visions of Daniel and Revelation, but the meaning of them has been revealed to those who make a study of the Word. if the Bible is true, and by one man death entered the world, then there was no death before that one man. therefore there was no evolutionary process... you either believe it or you don't. there's nothing i can do to convince you.
 
Upvote 0
lvbuckeye;911858; said:
i take what it says seriously and literally. of course Max will jump in about the prophetic visions of Daniel and Revelation, but the meaning of them has been revealed to those who make a study of the Word. if the Bible is true, and by one man death entered the world, then there was no death before that one man. therefore there was no evolutionary process... you either believe it or you don't. there's nothing i can do to convince you.
i see what you are saying now.

well.. me and you will not come to an agreement im sure.. but the way i look at that is this..

when i see things such as adam was tricked by a talking snake, its something more than a 'talking snake'

when noah built the ark at the age of 200 or whatever it was, i don't think noah really was 200 years old.

and this is where me and you obviously differ in our own interpetations.. and as for the 'by one man, sin entered the world' and has a consequence that brought death into the world. i would look at that, as more of a spirtual death.. the death of the soul.

i really think modern science has proved the bible, between RNA and proteins forming in clay, and the theory of realitivity alongside of the 6-day creation story is enough to make my blood run cold. this may be in part because i'm looking for it.

either theres some truth to the bible, or some dude 3 to 4,000 years ago had an incredibly lucky guess.

but like i said in an earlier post, ignorance is bliss, and once the first man induldged in knoweldge, learned the diffrence between right and wrong, and still choose wrong.. thats where 'death entered the world' and its more of a spirtual death than it is a physical death. i dont think its possible for a man to live thousands of years pre-sin because, logically, it's not possible. our bodies break down naturally over time.

looking at Christs death on the cross, and him conquering death (and in effect, sin) he didn't stay alive physically, but he conquered death & sin spirtually.
 
Upvote 0
Back
Top