Split Thread: End Times Discussion

[Bleed S & G]

t_Buckeye_Scott, i have a question for you. you say that the 69th week ends with the triumphant entry, yet Christ is cut off four literal days into the 70th week. is it not sloppy exegeses to suddenly switch from a day-year interperetation to a literal day interperetation mid-prophecy?

in regards to the possible future temple, what do you have to say about the annointing of the Holy Spirit and the fact that I Cor 6:9 says that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

i have a couple more questions as well, but my time is limited right now, so i will address them later.

(i admit that on its face, i have a small problem with a website that is named 'rapture ready.')

grad, see the hypothetical part 2, i addressed you question which ties into this

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Okay, now I see the confusion between us. Why are you assuming all 144,000 have to be saved in an interval of only two years? Why can't someone who was saved 20 years prior to the destruction of the temple be marked with God's seal two years prior to it?



As I read that verse, it simply says that the servants of God will be sealed; not that the sealing makes them servants of God. This sealing has nothing to do with their salvation in Christ, rather it is a seal that will protect them from the approaching judgements.

The preterist interpretation believes that there were 144,000 Messianic Jews that fled Judea before the Romans set seige to Jerusalem and surrounding lands. Now of course, we don't know if this is the true number or not (it is only a possibility), but we do know that the Messianic Jews fled Jerusalem to Pella on the east side of the Jordan River at this time. Most likely escaping because they remembered Jesus' prophesy in Luke 21.

As for these first century converts being the "first fruits" (the term used to describe the 144,000 in Rev 14:4), remember that James called the Messianic Jews by that title in James 1:18.

okay, I'm not sold on this by any means but for now I'll move onto something else.

Rev 6:12 And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I picked this out because I think this is the toughest sell for me to believe already happened. This earthquake is definately the mother of all earthquakes by the description... we haven't had one of those yet.

If perhaps you're not taking this literally why not take this literally and take Genesis literally?

 

[Bleed S & G]

okay, I'm not sold on this by any means but for now I'll move onto something else.

Rev 6:12 And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I picked this out because I think this is the toughest sell for me to believe already happened. This earthquake is definately the mother of all earthquakes by the description... we haven't had one of those yet.

If perhaps you're not taking this literally why not take this literally and take Genesis literally?

the 6th seal has yet to open.

this is a nuke war. a ww3 type scenario. imagine san fransico getting hit with a nuke.. the san andreas fault goes. hell all the faults would go in that area due to all the underground nuke testing, no? the cloud is either a nuclear winter or could be dust going up etc., but if a nuke war took place, the ice sheets would all melt and there would be mass flooding, (all of this would contribute to the 1/3 of everything dieing off) tsunamis, etc.
^perhaps but idk, i think what the 6th seal would be is a war

the fig tree is symbolic of israel, but i think the majority o refrences to israel would mean the nation of israel, encompassing christian countries.

the islands and mountains moving could go with huge quakes, shifitng of plates as a result of the incredible changes..

do we know what would happen to the planet in an all out nuke war?

anyways, the 6th seal is unopened and the 5th seal may be in the process of opening now? opening soon? already opened?

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

the 6th seal has yet to open.

this is a nuke war. a ww3 type scenario. imagine san fransico getting hit with a nuke.. the san andreas fault goes. hell all the faults would go in that area due to all the underground nuke testing, no? the cloud is either a nuclear winter or could be dust going up etc., but if a nuke war took place, the ice sheets would all melt and there would be mass flooding, (all of this would contribute to the 1/3 of everything dieing off) tsunamis, etc.
^perhaps but idk, i think what the 6th seal would be is a war

the fig tree is symbolic of israel, but i think the majority o refrences to israel would mean the nation of israel, encompassing christian countries.

the islands and mountains moving could go with huge quakes, shifitng of plates as a result of the incredible changes..

do we know what would happen to the planet in an all out nuke war?

anyways, the 6th seal is unopened and the 5th seal may be in the process of opening now? opening soon? already opened?

No the 6th Seal is exactly what it says it is: an earthquake. I'm not sure where you get your ideas but its safe to say I've never seen or heard those before. I was talking to Grad who says that Rev4-10 or 11 already happened.

 

[Bleed S & G]

No the 6th Seal is exactly what it says it is: an earthquake. I'm not sure where you get your ideas but its safe to say I've never seen or heard those before. I was talking to Grad who says that Rev4-10 or 11 already happened.

you had 3 verses, only one of which described the earth quake and in that one that mentioned the earthquake it elobrates to the extent of the moon turning blood red and the sun becoming black. i was saying how a nuke war could trigger massive earthquakes everywhere.

but the main point i was trying to convey was that its not opened yet. obviously nobody knows the complete meaning of any of this stuff

 

[lvbuckeye]

the 6th seal has yet to open.

this is a nuke war. a ww3 type scenario. imagine san fransico getting hit with a nuke.. the san andreas fault goes. hell all the faults would go in that area due to all the underground nuke testing, no? the cloud is either a nuclear winter or could be dust going up etc., but if a nuke war took place, the ice sheets would all melt and there would be mass flooding, (all of this would contribute to the 1/3 of everything dieing off) tsunamis, etc.
^perhaps but idk, i think what the 6th seal would be is a war

the fig tree is symbolic of israel, but i think the majority o refrences to israel would mean the nation of israel, encompassing christian countries.

the islands and mountains moving could go with huge quakes, shifitng of plates as a result of the incredible changes..

do we know what would happen to the planet in an all out nuke war?

anyways, the 6th seal is unopened and the 5th seal may be in the process of opening now? opening soon? already opened?

i think it is important to know what you are looking at when you read prophecy an symbolism. in Biblical symbolism, an earthquake represents revolution, not necessarily bloody, but great political or social upheaval. Christ's sacrifice was symolized as a religious upheaval by the earthquake when He gave up the Ghost. the reformation could have been characterized as an earthquake because of the great religious, social, and moral upheaval that it brought about in Europe...

the earthquake in Rev 6 represents the great upheaval that came about with Constantine, and the overthrowing of the the pagan heavenly (literally) dieties that the pagan Romans worshipped...

 

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Strange, I've never heard of earthquakes as revolutions before... why exactly wouldn't an earthquake be an earthquake in the Bible? Why wouldn't you interpret this literally?

 

[lvbuckeye]

because Daniel and Revelation aren't written that way. have you seen any great beasts with 7 heads and 10 horns literally running around? the answer is 'no' because those beasts symbolize empires. surely you cannot question the symbolism inherent in the Bible. a perfect example of symbolism was when Jesus called Himself "The Good Shepherd." He was a carpenter, He never herded sheep, so if His statement was to be taken literally He was a liar; therefore He had to be speaking in metaphor, which IS symbolism.

 

[Bleed S & G]

I stumbled upon this guy, who claims to be one of the two witness' from revelation. He says openly hey no one is going to believe me but its not my job to convince you, it's Gods and you'll eventually see that I'm right.

He also ships his book free of charge, no money involved in any of this.. take it for what its worth but his 248 page book on all of this stuff i figured was worth sharing.

http://www.the-end.com/2008godsfinalwitness/2008_gods_final_witness.pdf

Very long, I've read into it a bit.. i don't agree with some of it, but the general signs are the things we've been discussing here and i really like the "labor pains" illustration.

Jury is out. This guy creeps me out. He states everything in a matter of fact way, and uses quotes from the Bible saying how people don't want to believe this because it's contradictory to their own beliefs but that "every way of man is right in his eyes" and yada yada, pretty much lays it out there and says i am prophet from the God of Abraham, it's been a long time since there was a prophet of God, and this is the way it is, believe it or don't believe it because it dosen't matter. On one hand, he seems crazy.. on the other i do agree with him in that i personally feel it's obvious the signs are everywhere and the stage is set, but than again im a young guy with "spirtual" beliefs still forming and im in the middle of "growing up"..

and didn't Moses seem crazy until what he said came true? Ehh..

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

There's always a fine line between insanity and prophecy. Or you could say it like this: "Talking to God is normal, but when God talks back it's pschizophrenia"

Frankly, I see no reason to believe that these are the end times any more or any less than at any other point in our History. I tend to think people want to believe their time has meaning, and so some turn to the "end of times" discussion as a support of that psychological need. It's quite a common occurance around the 00 years (IE, 1900, 1800..) and particularly around 000 years (1000, 2000). For some ridiculous reason, man seems to think the world will end sometime around the change of a millenium. I don't see many arguments that we should all look out for .. say... 2436 because it's all over then and arguing it with force.

We think hunger and pain and etc. is "UP" and we see a lot of hurricanes and all of a sudden, we're in the end of times. History is repleate with examples of more 'painful' times and weather cycles are what they are. There is no signifigance in any of it. And.. so what... if God comes, there's nothing we can do about it anyway. I have a hard time believing anyone would be fool enough to deny God if shit goes down like it's said in the Bible.... Soon as there is a worldwide ruler (The Antichrist) who makes a bunch of demands (Like that I carry "the mark") I'll be more worried. Unitl then, I'll just sorta sit bemused as people argue Bill Gates represents the Anti Christ, and the fact that the Murder rate seems to be up and there's a bunch of hurricanes a couple years ago.. we're all doomed.

Indeed, if the resolution of revelation is 1,000 year rule of Christ, I don't know what all the worry is about anyway. Indeed, you should seek that it occur sooner than later, so that you can live under this "perfect rule" as it were.... but of course... like above, hoping that armageddon happen doesn't do shit... if it's gonna occur, it will occur when it does and there aint shit we can do about it.

 

[Bleed S & G]

I tend to think people want to believe their time has meaning, and so some turn to the "end of times" discussion as a support of that psychological need.

History is repleate with examples of more 'painful' times and weather cycles are what they are. There is no signifigance in any of it.

if it's gonna occur, it will occur when it does and there aint shit we can do about it.

I agree with you, i think its funny where you see this is the most amount of blank in recorded history, which is what 300 years at the most for this stuff?

 

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

I agree with you, i think its funny where you see this is the most amount of blank in recorded history, which is what 300 years at the most for this stuff?

Had a similar discussion with the Jehovahs last year. They were trying to argue signifigance in the daily news which establishes these are the most chaotic times on earth. Needless to say, I rejected the notion.

 

[lvbuckeye]

I stumbled upon this guy, who claims to be one of the two witness' from revelation. He says openly hey no one is going to believe me but its not my job to convince you, it's Gods and you'll eventually see that I'm right.

He also ships his book free of charge, no money involved in any of this.. take it for what its worth but his 248 page book on all of this stuff i figured was worth sharing.

http://www.the-end.com/2008godsfinalwitness/2008_gods_final_witness.pdf

Very long, I've read into it a bit.. i don't agree with some of it, but the general signs are the things we've been discussing here and i really like the "labor pains" illustration.

Jury is out. This guy creeps me out. He states everything in a matter of fact way, and uses quotes from the Bible saying how people don't want to believe this because it's contradictory to their own beliefs but that "every way of man is right in his eyes" and yada yada, pretty much lays it out there and says i am prophet from the God of Abraham, it's been a long time since there was a prophet of God, and this is the way it is, believe it or don't believe it because it dosen't matter. On one hand, he seems crazy.. on the other i do agree with him in that i personally feel it's obvious the signs are everywhere and the stage is set, but than again im a young guy with "spirtual" beliefs still forming and im in the middle of "growing up"..

and didn't Moses seem crazy until what he said came true? Ehh..

i'm 55 pages in. it is compelling...

edit: page 96... even more compelling...

edit2: page 113... o_O umm... yeah...

 

[Gatorubet]

"And the stars of heaven fell to the earth"

What the heck is that supposed to mean, as it cannot be literal?

 

[MrsB]

"And the stars of heaven fell to the earth"

What the heck is that supposed to mean, as it cannot be literal?

Ever hear of a meteor shower?