lvbuckeye;641857; said:
stop. just because i'm an historicist doesn't mean that i believe every event has already occurred. that would be absurd. it should be plainly evident that the Trumpet of the Archangel Michael has not sounded and the Day of the Lord has not yet come... though i think it's getting closer every day.
however, flinging crap against the wall to see what sticks as a manner of interpereting prophecies, especially in light of the fact that many of the prophecies can clearly be seen to have been fulfilled by major historic events of the last two millenium, is willfull ignorance. Daniel was written over 2500 years ago. Revelation was written 2000 years ago. to assume that none of the events have occured yet and that all of them are either 1) current events (which should logically smash the strict preterist view, considering the fact that current event become past events quite quickly), or 2) all in the future, is not feasable (for nearly the same logical conclusion that future events swiftly become events of the past).
while we're on the subject, the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel was completed with the resurrection and ascension of Christ. in the 70 weeks prophecy, 12 things were to take place:
Remember before I go through all this what Gabriel said in the beginning of Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city? Who are Daniel?s people? Israel. Holy City? Jerusalem.
lvbuckeye said:
1) to finish transgression: in Christ's crucifixion, the ultimate sacrifice was made, and transgressions ceased for all who believe. Matthew 23:32-36, Acts 3:14-15
It actually reads ?to finish
the transgression?
Unless you look at the Hebrew something is lost in the translation. In the Hebrew there is a definitive article in front of the Hebrew word for transgression. This is not talking about all transgression. Instead the transgression refers to a certain Israel transgression: rejection of her Messiah. This is clearly not solved even today. Although more Jews are coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ than ever before not even close to half of Israel?s population has a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
lvbuckeye said:
2) to make an end of sins: in death, Christ made an end to sin. Hebrews 9:26
Israel?s sins?Okay?
lvbuckeye said:
3) to make reconcilliation for iniquity: in his Crucifixion, Christ made reconcilliation for our iniquity. II Corinthians 5:19
Iniquity = willful disobedience. This goes back to #1. This won?t be finished till His 2nd coming.
The first three should be grouped together because of their similarity in dealing with Israel?s sin. Also the first 3 are also all 2 word Hebrew phrases whereas the second three are all 3 word Hebrew phrases. The second 3 all deal with God?s righteousness.
lvbuckeye said:
4) to bring everlasting righteousness: His death and Resurrection brought about everlasting righteousness. II Corinthians 5:21, Romans 3:21-22
Remember ?to your people?: Israel. Israel has not been brought to everlasting righteousness(as evidenced by their transgression) and won?t until the second coming.
5) to seal up the vision and prophecy: Christ's coming sealed up prophecy. Luke 16:16, Acts 3:18[/quote]
Hebrew word for ?to seal? is the same as ?to make an end.? Prophecy would have to be completed.
Luke 16:16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.
Proclaimed does not equal completed.
Acts 3:18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ[a] would suffer
Um?neither of these says that all the prophecies were fulfilled. In fact you already admitted that all prophecies weren?t fulfilled. So if prophecy hasn?t been fulfilled it hasn?t been sealed and therefore the 70 weeks is not done.
lvbuckeye said:
6) to annoint the Most Holy: Christ was annointed at His Baptism. Luke 3:21-22, 4:18-22
or consencrate the Most Holy
Anoint = consecrate
Christ was anointed at his baptism, but that isn?t the fulfillment of this particular prophecy. The Hebrew words used here for Most Holy is (qodesh qadash?m) or Holy of Holies(look familiar?) is used 39 times in the OT. Never was it used to describe a person. When given an article it always referred to the place where the Ark of the Covenant was stored (the place where the High Priest could only go in once a year on Yom Kippur). When used plural it refers to the Temple or Tabernacle as a whole. If the temple referred to hear was actually already anointed do you think God would allow it to be destroyed? This is a future Temple.
On to the narrative:
lvbuckeye said:
7) Jerusalem to be restored: occured during the time of Ezra and Nehemiah.
8) Streets and walls rebuilt in troubled times: graphically described in Nehemiah.
Absolutely.
This is where I would like a closer look at Daniel 9:25
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
The first 69 weeks end at the Messiah. The decree given in 444 BC when added with the exact nubmer of solar days ends on March 30 33AD: Jesus's
triumphal entry into Jerusalem ends the 69th week.
Calculations
lvbuckeye said:
9) the Messiah to be cut off: Matthew 27:35
12) Jerusalem again becomes desolate: instead of being destroyed immediately, Jerusalem was given 40 years to repent, a la Nineveh being given 40 days. 40 years later, Jerusalem was ransacked, and now a mosque sits on the Temple Mount.
Dan 9:26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war. (Emphasis added)
Dan 9:27 And(then) he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
Here the after only means just that. There is no implied immediately after. But it is 4 days after the end of the 69th week that Jesus is cut off at the cross.
I added the then because that was the intent of the original Hebrew. It means after what happened this is to take place.
lvbuckeye said:
10) the Messiah confirms the convenant: Malachi 3:1, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Matthew 26:28
This is a bad quote. As shown above it is he, but the last he in the text is the ruler of the people who destroyed Jerusalem. Pronouns in Hebrew always refer to the last noun that fits gender and is the same amount. That 'he" is not He the Messiah.
Also isn't the Jesus covenant everlasting while the covenant between "he" is only One week.
lvbuckeye said:
11) He causes sacrifice and oblation to cease: Hebrews 10:7-9
Jesus sure did cause the need for sacrifices and oblation to cease. But the need for and the actual ceasing are two different things. They didn't stop until the Temple was destroyed.
the "he" here is still the same "he"
lvbuckeye said:
the 70th week began with Christ's baptism. 3 1/2 years later, He was cut off, and the 70th week ended with the stoning of Stephen and the end of exlusive ministry in Israel.
As shown earlier using actual daily calculation from the Actual decree to Rebuild Jerusalem you end up at Jesus's entry into Jerusalem not his baptism.
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ttcol.html
Thomas Ice goes through the 70 weeks of Daniel phrase by phrase and includes notes on original Hebrew language and grammer. There are 12 longer than a page articles on it.
